Abortion and Philosophy Tube | Is The Discussion Over?



in one rme class at school I was given a graph representing the nine months of pregnancy on which I was to mark the point that I thought the fetus became a person and therefore shouldn't be aborted the teacher coming around to collect our work stopped when he noticed that I hadn't written anything Chanel like a wife you know answered this question I don't think I understand the task mr. Duncan right well you've got a graph here this is your two weeks this is 32 weeks and you mark the spot where you think that the fetus becomes a person and shouldn't it be aborted see here it's got a heart here it's got wheel legs no it's not that I don't said what I'm supposed to do is that I don't see what the point is killing the fetus is still killing it why try and justify that by saying it isn't a person so you think that the fetus is a person right the way through right well in that case you're against abortion and you plot the mark right at the start no I'm not against abortion I just think that killing is killing call it what it is but Chenal occur if the fetus is a person then killing it would be I don't think that the fetus is a person or not it's more that I don't see the point in making an arbitrary distinction the fetus is a fetus it's a cluster of cells that will grow into a baby person it is whatever it is at any stage and whatever you want to call it killing it is still killing it and I think that's fine the life of the fetus should come second to the impact its gonna have on the life of its parent I actually don't think this question is relevant can you please just answer the question so I can collect your work and that was the day that I learned that deviation from popular schools of thought is not encouraged particularly in young assumed women on topics that are relevant to them furthermore mr. Duncan was looking at me like I might try and slit his throat with the ruler so I figured this was one of those opinions I'd maybe best keep to myself there was no need to go around announcing it after all abortion is legal where I live however recently abortion rights have been on rapid reverse in the United States and the discussion surrounding it brought me to this video by Sophie Lewis which was apparently very controversial major dogpiling she was getting compared to Hitler on Twitter and was being touted on various pro-life sites as the devil incarnate so I was intrigued to see what the fuss was all about we're facing a really terrifying attack on abortion in the US where I live in Northern Ireland and elsewhere we're not winning we're losing spectacularly we tend to say that abortion is indeed very bad but or we say luckily it's not killing we have very little to lose at the moment when it comes to abortion and I'm interested in winning radically and I wonder if we could think about defending abortion as a right to stop doing gestational work abortion is in my opinion a form of killing it is a form of killing that we need to be able to defend I am NOT interested in where a human life starts to exist looking at the biology of this kind of Hema Coryell pleasant ation helps me think about the violence that innocently a fetus meets out visa vie agitator and that violence is is an unacceptable violence for someone who doesn't want to do gestational work the violence that that just data meets out to essentially go on strike or exit that that workplace is unacceptable violence her views and the way that she was being aggressively shut down echoed my experience from school so I decided to do a video in support providing my own arguments along closely similar lines however I was beaten to it by the most qualified voice on the subject of a third bodily autonomy philosophy tube tonight I want to give you a completely new way of thinking about one of the most incendiary issues of our time in 1971 the philosopher Judith Jarvis Thompson wrote one of the most famous philosophy papers ever as the journalist Lorie penny puts it it does not matter whether fetus is a person's it matters whether pregnant people are ollie this entire video is literally you reenacting arguments that people with uteruses have already made can you not say you're saying something new when you're very demonstrably not to be clear other than that one point of irritation I love this video I mean I get to watch ben shapiro being tortured by his own logic in a sex dungeon however i was very struck by the difference in response between philosophy tube's video and sophie lewis's i want to know where his swarms of haters are are they here here hello all the thorns done a radical video and abortion someone come get him I want to eat this popcorn philosophy tubes of radical argument might not be new but people calmly listening to and accepting it definitely is Sophie Lewis's video came out less than a month prior to his but the difference in response is quite significant why that I wonder and what does it say about the abortion discussion as a whole Sophie Lewis and Oliver thorn make the same basic argument that nobody should be forced to undergo suffering in order to save someone else's life and this is an idea already very commonly accepted worldwide by law duty to rescue is a legal concept in which the individual is obligated to help someone in danger now the obvious reason you wouldn't help someone in danger is if there's a significant risk to yourself let's say for example someone was drowning in a river you might not know how deep the river is you might not know whether there are strong currents you might not be able to swim all of which would present a significant risk to you if you attempted rescue that's just one example there are a myriad of situations in which you could provide a perfectly decent explanation for not saving someone's life and probably for this reason duty to rescue is only law in a handful of countries and ten states in the u.s. even then it typically doesn't require you to put yourself at risk usually you just have to call the emergency services pregnancy seems to be the sole example where large groups of people think you should have to undergo pain and suffering in order to save someone else's life the main obvious difference is that pregnancy may have been intentional in which case you are responsible for that being being in that situation in the first place so let's expand the river scenario let's say it was your idea to go swimming so you are responsible for your companion being in the river however you then notice that there are strong currents and you're a weak swimmer you change your mind and your companion starts to drown should you still be legally obligated to go in an attempt to save them even at significant risk to yourself maybe you think you should maybe you think you shouldn't but it's interesting that lobbyists for anti-abortion regulations aren't also putting the same amount of energy into getting duty to rescue made law such laws would of course affect everyone regardless of their gender just quickly before I move on this argument is obviously made on the basis that the fetus is as much of a person as an adult human which I obviously don't think it is my own personal views remain very much the same as they were in school fetus is fetus less person towards the start more person towards the end but not at any stage comparable to an adult human I mean honestly I even think that a baby well that shit dog at all came I believe that the root cause of disagreement with this argument is not true concern for human life but simply misogyny the intense hypocrisy in most of the arguments presented by pro lifers leave sexism as the main plausible factor many pro lifers seem totally okay with the idea of people owning guns or even capital punishment which obviously contradicts the idea that human life should be protected at all costs unless of course you argue as I imagine these people would that some deserve that violence done to them whereas the fetus hasn't done anything wrong or has it shall we talk about some simple realities of pregnancy the fetus causes huge and sometimes irreversible changes to a person's body severely impacts their mobility and their ability to do anything including you know their job gives them nausea vomiting headaches and all-around body pain culminating in an exit process which is not just near incomprehensibly painful if it goes well but can literally kill you if it doesn't and that's not to mention the potential for psychological trauma as a matter of fact pregnancy is such an innately violent process that some people get PTSD simply from watching their partners give birth now I'm not pro debts penalty myself partially because there's always a margin of error as to knowing for sure whether the convicted person did commit the crime or is with a thesis you know exactly what hell is about to unfold obviously the fetus doesn't mean any harm I mean it can't even throw up on you yet but I've spoken about intentions before and here given that a lack of them is also due to a lack of the capacity to think they're especially irrelevant assuming that you wouldn't let a regular human get away with inflicting that amount of harm on someone without their consent and bearing in mind that many pro-lifers are also proo death penalty why is extreme violence permissible if it's being exact advice um thing I could have pulled out of an alien egg capsule at primary school philosophy tube makes the point about fetuses gettin aborted all over the Shore both by fertility clinics and natural human body function to this I would add that the contraceptive pill itself can also result in terminated fetuses your standard contraceptive pill works on more than one level the first is simply to prevent ovulation however if that fails a secondary measure comes into play the womb lining is thinned making it difficult for a fertilized egg to attach to it in other words a perfectly viable embryo may still come into existence and end up flushed down the toilet so really pro lifers shouldn't be okay with contraceptive pills fertility clinics or just the way that the a fab body works I mean I'm definitely not I can think of a lot of improvements we should definitely ban periods when you get to the crux of these arguments they all falls through in terms of simply suggesting that life should be protected at all costs it is incredibly specific to abortion and given that abortion has historically and is typically viewed as a female issue it can therefore be concluded that the stance of pro-life is is not truly one that is pro-life but rather Pro patriarchy and this brings us on to the difference between Oliver thorn and Sophie Lewis Ollie and Sophie present virtually identical arguments but the response to them could not be more different now to be fair part of the reason that Ollie thorne is a well-respected YouTube philosopher and Sophie Lewis is the literal spawn of Satan is because the people engaging with all these video are primarily leftist who already support him whereas the people engaging with Sophie's video are primarily right-wingers but why is that there are a few factors that make conservatives particularly allergic to Sophie's video in contrast to Ollie's the first is that she's a theorist who writes books instead of a commentator educator who does YouTube videos her video went viral after it was featured by Tucker Carlson on his segment of Fox News in other words it was shown to people who watch television specifically people who watch Fox News so while her detractors may be using the Internet they may not be into the culture enough to have come across all this video or to particularly care about it whereas they perceive a physical book as a real-world threat the fact that Sophie Lewis has a smaller online platform also just you know makes her an easier target it's a lot more fun – dogpile someone if they don't have a squad of adoring fans to fight on their behalf I'm not speaking from personal experience at all she also presents the argument in their slightly different ways she refers to pregnancy as work calling it a labor relation which obviously infuriates the write who view the mother-child relationship almost a sacred she describes the unborn child as committing an act of violence which is arguably true but not particularly palatable language I mean you know how much the right hate violence and then she goes on to make an analogy of workers striking what are you a communist don't strike accept your shitty conditions do your job and live under the dream that one day if you work hard enough you can be the one thriving on the exploitation of the working class while the thought experiment presented by Olli is specifically designed to win an opponent over Sophie Lewis's video is extremely possibly even deliberately antagonistic to traditionalist values a Marxist analogy could only appeal to the left however and this is important these are just differences in presentation the fundamental argument is exactly the same furthermore the exact scenario presented by Ollie thorne which is specifically designed to put an opponent in a position analogous to an unwanted pregnancy and thereby win them over by appealing to their sense of empathy was originally conceived by Judith Jarvis Thompson more than 30 years ago there's one more difference between ollie thorne and all of these other thinkers left and I think it's both the most significant and the most pertinent to the discussion the fact that he's a man and they're not and I think this is relevant not just to pro lifers but to the entire abortion discussion now I know what you're gonna say all these fans are already on board with this stuff right when a misogynist so if we only knew about this other person we disappoint her too right well if that's the case then why have the viewpoints of the female thinkers presented in all the thorns video not already become the main arguments of pro choices I mean he obviously found them easily enough why is he even able to present these ideas as new why did my teacher treat me like I was a psychopath when I came up with this idea 814 why have we not been supporting people with uteruses who have been making this argument from the start we've established the argument that giving more weight to the state of personhood of the fetus then the bodily autonomy of the pregnant person is inherently misogynistic so why did we ever use that logic even to make an argument that is pro-choice part of it may have been a necessary evil I guess if we accept that the anti-abortion argument is patriarchal at its core then you are more likely to win over an opponent with an argument that doesn't shake that fundamental pillar in other words you are more likely to win by saying the fetus is a jelly bean then saying women should have the right to decide what to do with their own bodies quick trans disclaimer when I say women here I'm referring specifically to the fact that abortion historically and is generally viewed as a female issue and the resulting role of misogyny in people's position on the issue rather than the result of abortion laws which obviously affect all individuals capable of being pregnant regardless of their gender so we might win but how solidly this argument only works if the fetus is assumed not to be a person which is not something there is a general consensus on at all leaving us winning on ground that could crumble beneath us at any moment furthermore it's not a win for the right to bodily autonomy which is in most other situations placed as unquestionable even at the expense of the lives of other adult humans while having the rights of abortion is arguably better than not regardless of how that happens it's still using an argument that fundamentally D values the autonomy of the pregnant person in order to do so what I'm saying here is that misogyny has been a key subconscious influence not just in the views of pro-lifers but in those of pro-choice is supporting the state of personhood of the fetus arguments over the right to bodily autonomy regardless of whether that has been tactical choice or genuine belief bear in mind I'm talking about a largely subconscious mindset that affects all of us including me and people like me we may be working to change a patriarchal society but we were still born and raised in it and that's gonna affect the way we think altering that is a continuous active conscious process illegal izing abortion is one of the key ways in which women can be stripped of autonomy so when discussing it I think it's particularly important that we check our internalized prejudices and how those might affect our line of thinking the right to bodily autonomy over the state of personhood of the fetus shouldn't have been an argument that I came up with and had to try and convince my teacher to understand it should have been what he was teaching me it should have been leading the discussion long before Oliver thorn came along to grant it validity again to be clear I don't resent that video if anything I'm very glad he's done it now I don't have to worry so much about being seen as crazy and delusional or code and emotionless whatever non men are viewed as these days because here I am agreeing with a clever man what I would like you to take away from this video besides obviously my opinion on abortion in general is an awareness of your own prejudices and how those might affect how you perceive an argument regardless of the arguments actual content remember this it – Asian presented by Olly Thorne while extremely satisfying to one's inner sadist is unlikely to actually happen to anybody unwanted pregnancy on the other hand is a horrific everyday reality the rights of those individuals to decide what to do in that situation is of utmost importance and I think we have something to learn from the fact that these arguments weren't normalized when they were first made by women a long time ago if you like this video please like subscribe and share it thank you very much for watching goodbye you

44 Replies to “Abortion and Philosophy Tube | Is The Discussion Over?”

  1. Now onto the most important point of this video: does anyone else remember those alien eggs, and if so, please tell me: was it possible to breed them, or not? Also – why were we even attempting to breed things that looked remarkably like foetuses with other foetuses? what is wrong with us

  2. Could you really say they are putting forth the same argument? I understood ollie's video but sophie has written a whole book about this and if it was really the same argument it would not be that long. I do not know much of the jargon she used but your points would need to be adjusted if they are not actually the same argument.

  3. i think a substantial factor in it too is that ollie does not fit the narrative of the social justice warrior and is a practiced public speaker. he's conscious of how his arguments sound to people not versed in leftist terminology. it's also a much longer form video as opposed to sophie's verso books piece, so it's harder to misrepresent him to some tucker carlson watching ghoul. i think patriarchy is a large part of it for sure, but it's also in large part thanks to the right-wing grift media machine powered by capitalism. the new wave of leftist commentators on youtube are never going to get the free publicity from something like fox news because they don't fit the box they want to put leftists and feminists into. it's much easier for them to sell people on sophie being the devil, because she is a fairly "traditional" feminist academic. it's like how joe biden gets news coverage right now because he's a jackass but bernie sanders is hardly mentioned.

    it's an intersection of prejudices against leftists and feminists and marketing.

  4. The 'what you want to call it' applies as much to 'person' as to the 'killing'.

    Is it still killimg if its a zygote? How about if you are growing a skin graft and you destroy it, is this 'killing'?

    Retarded shot

  5. the killing of it is unrelated, it can only conscionably come second after a stage

    you can say tge sane thing about a just born child, that it is only a 'potential' person.

    Once it can feel pain and be viable outside tge womb seems an obvioys cutoff esp given tgey coincide

  6. 10:51 "pro-lifers shouldn't be ok with contraceptive pills, fertility clinics, or the way the AFAB body works!"
    Please don't give them any ideas…

  7. It's shameful and so damn transparent how they pick targets and what they actually believe no matter what their rhetoric might say. I really liked the video and subscribed!

  8. When I watch PT and ContraPoints, as well as other leftist content from white women or men, I always remind myself that they have been "blessed" with their own privileges that may not necessarily invalidate their opinions or even outcast their accomplishments, but it illustrates something about their audience (it is, after all, the fuel that keeps these channels growing) and how they approach political or social content.
    I am just glad, to be honest, that most of these content creators are also aware of their privileges and use them to further the discussion and to point out lesser known (or overlooked) figures in the field.

  9. Have you been attending the Splavid Arooni school of sipping from glasses without drinking? 😋 Excellent video though!

  10. I'm pro choice, but one thing that irritates me about many pro-choice arguments is that people tend to act like pregnancy is something that just happens. I hate to sound like a right-winger with the whole "personal responsibility" thing, but if you become pregnant, it's because you made the choice to have sex (except of course in the case of rape), so the argument about fetuses causing harm or pregnancy being traumatic doesn't seem all that relevant to me? The whole analogy about bringing your friend to the river and then leaving doesn't either for the same reason, unless you forced them to come with you. Fetuses didn't just decide to grow inside you. It's not like you just caught a parasite. It exists because of decisions you made. Shouldn't you at least be considered responsible for its existence?

  11. Perhaps when he says "I wanna give you a completely new way of thinking" he means: new to the viewer, not new to the world?

    It wasnt new to me when I first watched it, but, he does his research and cited his sources, it seems clear that he wasnt claiming he came up with it.

  12. Does anyone feel that in the core of anti abortion movements is a punishment for a woman having sex? Ancient form of slut shaming. This might be wrong, they may really care about the unborn, but I just feel this is the root of that belief.

  13. Great video, please keep making them! New to your channel but enjoying it a lot.

    While I agree the difference in response to Olly’s vid was largely due to gender (I think this is fairly uncontroversial), I would ask is it fair to say that Olly presents the arguments as if they were new? I mean, he cites Thompson at the beginning and is doing what he does in a lot of his videos, which is just present academic philosophy to a mainstream audience with his own spin on it (in this case, the dramatic element).

  14. "honestly I don't even think a baby is that much of a perso-”

    🗣️🗣️🗣️ LET HER SPEAK 🗣️🗣️🗣️

  15. I think the real question asked by this video is how Shonalika's wine keeps refilling

    But also that was a sub well-earned!

  16. Right from the outset: "Hm, this is an interesting opener. Okay, I'm on board"

    Face at 1:08: "Subscribed"

  17. Some of the things you say in this video remind me of a discussion surrounding Tom Holland and Brie Larson pushing for more representation of marginalized groups in MCU films. People reacted more harshly to the woman saying a similar thing to a man. There is a response to this that comes off more like "why isn't there more harrassment of the man" rather than "why the fuck are people being shitty about a pretty basic thing?" Kinda seems to miss the point in a way.

  18. There's a new technology. I think there's a chance it may catch on in popularity over time. It's called a "latex condom" and tends to be much less painful than an abortion procedure. Oh wait, no female drama, female screaming, and female crying with that route. NEVER MIND.

  19. "We should definitely ban periods"

    Absolutely. Whatever medical doctor or researcher figures out how to do it safely should be made a saint. We'll build cathedrals to them.

    Also, I wanted to add that Olly has dressed up as Satan for his videos and goes out of his way to be as unpalatable to conservative Christians as possible. Might have a lot to do with why he never gains much attention from the religious. As the spawn of a conservative Catholic I can promise you that kinda imagery goes a long way to keeping them away.

  20. This brings up a lot of ideas which really take the arguments presented in Olly's video to a whole other level that I hadn't considered before! Kudos!

    Also, as someone who is currently growing out their hair, I can't stop noticing how beautiful yours is! I want your hair!

  21. This is the first time I've encountered this argument in a long time (I've mostly come around to it on my own since someone in the distant past pointed out the principle of bodily autonomy) and I love your presentation of it. I don't know how to spread this idea.

  22. Isn't the philosophy tube guy kinda gender fucky or something? I don't really follow left tube. Maybe I'm confusing him with someone else.

  23. I have to admit, I first heard this line of thinking from Olly's video, and it honestly bothers me that was the case. I mean, I love Olly's content, he's an excellent showman, and he presents some very well reasoned arguments in very engaging ways, but we really should be hearing about this ideas from the people affected by them, and not from more culturally palatable cis white men. Not to say cis white men shouldn't be adding their voices, of course, if one has that sort of privilege one should use it responsibly, I think, but they shouldn't be the voices leading discussions like this.

  24. I'm just a man just trying to understands the views of other people and become more compassionate/empathetic. Your videos help A LOT. Thanks for the hard work! Cheers!

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