Abortion Discussion ft. Cosmic Skeptic & Rationality Rules



hey guys so what you're about to watch is a discussion that I had with Stephen and Alex rationality Wilson cosmic skeptic on the topic of abortion this video is a little bit later than the other two because I'll be honest I'm not happy with it we had audio issues we had camera issues it was like 1:00 a.m. when we were filming this and we're all really tired I've been a long day and but mostly this wasn't the discussion I had planned this wasn't the discussion I was prepared for and so I do feel like I was a little bit kind of caught off guard with it and I haven't wanted to post it because it doesn't feel like the type of content that's right for my channel and any other time I would have just scrapped the video but obviously I can't do that in this case and it's something you guys want to see I think there are some interesting points brought up and on like all sites especially the sides opposing me I think it did make me rethink certain parts of my like opinion or view or whatever it did challenged me a bit but ultimately the problem is that I just I don't think it touches on the topics that I want that I wanted to speak about war you can be seeing is kind of like abortion from like kind of a purely like I'm saying like a lot and almost like a purely philosophical perspective which is isn't my way of doing things you know that and then there's nothing wrong with it it's just not the sort of thing I normally put on my channel and I think there's a place for people to have those discuss discussions I just don't think this is it and for me when we talk about the issue of abortion it's not just this philosophical or moral issue it's not just a matter of like what's the right thing to do because sometimes the right thing to do isn't always possible you'll see you later in the video like much later in the video I bring up the issue of you know budget and things like that especially in the UK and how you know if if we did just stop abortions what a strain that would put on our economy and it's very easy for someone to turn around and say oh but you know that's not why people are opposed to abortion and you know that's not the issue here but I think it is I think if you're gonna sit there and take a pro-life stance and you're gonna say abortions are wrong and bla bla bla bla bla and and argue that we shouldn't have abortions then you also need to tell me where is the money gonna come from to look after all those new kids you you can't just talk about the morals and the philosophy as a hypothetical because when it comes to something like abortion this is a real issue affecting real people's lives on a daily basis and sometimes that does mean making hard and difficult decisions which might not be right for everyone but in a real world you have to be practical about it and that's why I don't think it's wrong to bring up issues like budgeting and politics and emotions abortion isn't just this hypothetical moral question it's a real issue facing real people it is a social issue a political issue an emotional issue is a medical issue of biological issue an economic issue is not just about these hypothetical moral scenarios that's why I think I'm a bit frustrated with this video because I feel like a lot of time philosophical fluff is thrown around and the hard science is ignored I've had so many from people saying different things to me before they've even seen this video and it is so I don't know how to get my head around it like I have so many people saying oh you must be afraid to post it because Alex clearly ripped you apart in it and showed you up for how stupid you are and then I have like Stephen saying to me all no don't worry you have nothing to worry about and I'm like I don't care about the wrong and the right my problem is that like I don't feel that Alex ripped me apart in this discussion I just think he was taking the conversation in a different direction from what I was prepared for I'm not afraid to post this because I get ripped apart I'm not proud to post this because this isn't the video I wanted to that's it like this isn't me trying to say anything negative and Alex will Stephen or anything like the different creators to me and we have different viewpoints and like it's like I say it's good to be challenged but I know I just I don't feel like this is a helpful useful discussion but you know what I'm just gonna say like kind of I'm just gonna say screw it at this point and post it and you guys can make up your own mind um I just want to warn you you know there are some major audio issues we had with Stephens microphone our cameras just gave up at the end because it was the middle of the night and I think I was close to giving it as well is there weeks now and I'm just fed up of re watching this discussion and not being happy with it and yeah I think maybe if you guys want it at some point it would be interesting to do another video on abortion that I'm actually kind of happier with that touches on the big issues that I want to talk about that touches on you know the proper biology that touches on the science the the social aspect the emotional aspect the economic aspect of the political aspect as well as the moral stuff you know I think it's probably fair to say that some of my like arguments in this come from a place of being too emotional about it I think it's fair to say that some of Alex's arguments come from a place of you know youthful naivety I think Stephen is probably the most reasonable one in the video and it annoyingly his is the microphone that wasn't working properly so it's so frustrating I I just want to make it clear that like when I say I'm frustrated with this video and I don't think it works and I don't like it I'm not happy with it like it's no disrespect to Alex and Steve and it's not their fault perhaps I should have done a better job of like this like guiding the discussion where I wanted it to go but apparently I'm not like a strong enough person to do that um yeah I'd know what can I say like this sort of thing these kind of discussion a debate type things aren't my forte I've been very open and honest about that um and I was like I'll give it a go for this but apparently yeah everything that I thought could go wrong did go wrong so that's it's taught me a lesson I think it's also worth mention at this point because I don't think it's kind of like a counterpoint I bring up until much later on if I ever managed to bring it up at all I've not no point in the editing yet but um there's there's a whole kind of reoccurring analogy that Alex brings up when talking about human life saying like oh well it's like a grain of sand versus a pile of sand when does it become a pile of sand I don't think that's an accurate analogy to make with a fetus a baby a human being it's more like um I think the analogy I use is it's more like a burrito like when does it become a burrito you start off with a grain of sand sorry you start off with a grain of rice and then that becomes and you know a whole parcel of rice you have the rap you have the vegetables you have to meet you have some sauce or whatever and like at what point does it become a burrito and is the rice on its own a burrito is a large amount of rice a burrito or does it only become a burrito when it's wrapped in a little wrap does it only become a barrier when you add meat and vegetable does it only become a burrito when you add sauce or whatever and it can be a burrito without some of those things it can be or it can only be a burrito when you have certain things and so it's more of like a mix of all the things together and defining different circumstances and how you know different collections of different things make up a burrito you know it's the same in a fetus I think you know it's not just a bundle of cells growing into a bigger bundle of cells it is not accurate to say it like that because all depends on the cells becoming organs and tissues and specializing in different ways and you know it's not even just cells becoming a brain its cells becoming a brain that can you know have a has a consciousness that can feel pain that can understand pain that all the other things like and that's that's just one tiny thing and so yeah I thought that was worth mentioning now because it's something that I was thinking about constantly every time Alex brought that up but I don't know if I ever did or not so I just so it was something maybe what's bearing in mind I don't know I'm good this rambling thing now I don't know why I feel like I have to like defend myself in a video that should rightly be like my own but I don't know I I don't think this video gets the best versions of any of us or any of our opinions across and that's why I don't like it anyway screw it here we go this is the abortion video that you all wanted yeah I'd say enjoy but yeah hey guys I am here in Alex's garden with Alex that's right this guy at night at night it is it's currently late because we spent a whole day talking about some really light cheerful topics nothing nothing too serious and just veganism and like nihilism and why nothing matters and why we're wrong well you're wrong but being wrong means nothing and I am joined by the wonderful Steven woodford also known as rational icky rules and Alex O'Connor also known as cosmic skeptic but for all we've been okay for all I've been giggling we are gonna be talking about something pretty serious day and that's the topic of abortion it is very controversial and but I have some pretty strong opinions on it and I think you guys do too I'm sort of you could have nothing exploring the possibilities exploring abortion you could praise it that way I suppose I think I've been I've been the more I've been thinking about it I've come to realize that something that no nobody really does I think it is possible to make a pretty strong secular pro-life case and I think in this video perhaps for sake of being a contrarian at the very least I think I'd like to explore some of those ideas see what those have to think about them it's really a kind of question for me of exploring limits and exploring definitions so so I I think it kind of like one of the big things I want to kind of like get out of like explain to you is I think when it comes to something like abortion it's not a pro-life pro-choice thing in terms of like there's no one-size-fits-all for everybody I think it's a very very like personal thing for the woman and in a lot of cases for the man involved as well and I think it kind of needs to be considered especially when it comes to like asking is it right or wrong should be allowed it needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis there's no like all abortion is okay or no abortion it's okay and that's why I think having the option for women to get an abortion like you know by law in a country is important but I also think it's important there are rules in place I think the UK's laws are pretty good but they're not perfect and that's something I will talk about today so we're gonna be kind of like looking at the laws are currently in place in the UK and the u.s. is like a whole other kind of kettle of fish so we're not going to touching on that too much we're just gonna be kind of like looking at the UK we're gonna be looking at it kind of like biology behind like pregnancy and when abortions can take place and we're gonna be looking at kind of like a little bit out of the process of abortion because it's not nice but in some cases it is necessary I think the laws of the because we were talking privately momentarily ago about that the common conflation between what is legal and what is moral which is a fatuous thing to do but it in the case when you're discussing something like a bush it's important to bring up the laws and so we can focus on UK law but I think when we start getting into the philosophical case it really obviously it applies wherever you are you know say yeah that sounds like a good plan and then I want to touch on looking at some of the actual like statistics and how abortion affects like the UK economy and it's a very kind of like practical way of looking at things but I think it's a very important one and a lot of people object to the NHS paying for abortions but I would argue that it's better than NHS to do that then we put more money into if those babies have been born but that's we'll get to that in a minute because it's a pretty complicated thing and so to start with how long is a pregnancy nine months give me in weeks forty weeks is so I believe well they're about so obviously it varies on average before it pops out well I suppose it depends when you when you begin to consider it to be a baby well that's the thing pregnancy is counted as 40 weeks but the baby is only going for 38 this is why you have this is why you have to be very very careful about talking about weeks of pregnancy and age of the fetus because they're different a woman's pregnancy is counted from the last day of her last period but conception normally happens two weeks after now when a woman ovulate so there's technically two weeks of pregnancy when she's not pregnant so a two-week-old fetus is very very different to two weeks of pregnancy right yes yeah that's important so eight weeks of pregnancy is a six week old feature I think that just for the sake of clarity if I talk about if I say quickly and under my breath two weeks in or something of that sort then I'm talking about two weeks into a fetus growing yeah you know but but that's that's important just in case people get confused about that and so like that that is worth can bear in mind because when I talk about things like statistics it's like under ten weeks of pregnancy that means when the fetus is eight weeks old or younger basically so stuff like that is important right in the UK let's talk a little bit about laws is it legal to get an abortion just for any woman to go out get an abortion so there there are a few there are a few qualifications you have to hit firstly if it's before 24 weeks it for any reason you can go ahead and do it but as long as you get two signatures from a doctor it could be whatever you want as long as it's long as it's 24 weeks situation to support another that's not true it is illegal for a woman to get an abortion in the UK unless it fit certain criteria like you said but ultimately it is illegal but like we say there are these amendments so in the UK a woman can't just go and get an abortion for any reason it's not like in America where it's just abortion on demand so in order for them to get an abortion and ideally it has to be under 24 weeks most abortions are under 24 weeks except in really extreme circumstances I think it's something like a 96 point something percent are under 24 24 weeks what do you agree that there should be a reason for it what do you think it's the woman's right to the point where they can do what they want to the same time I agree there should be a limit and I think 24 weeks is good for now would you say but nobody does does a biological reason why and we'll get to it in a minute yeah if that's okay so basically as long as it's under 24 weeks and I'm just gonna read this out and and the continuation of the pregnancy would involve risk greater than if the pregnancy was terminated of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family the abortion will be granted they're already problems with that for instance how on earth can you judge greater than the stress for instance like mental stress greater than the life of a child what is what is that level no it's it's not greater than the life of the child it's greater than if yes so basically they're saying like let's take the woman's and mental health for example okay they're saying you know if she continues with this pregnancy how is her mental health likely to you know change is she likely to get depressed if she likely to want to kill her it's saying like it's not putting it above the child looking the child's kind of not involved in this bit so what does it have to be great to them that that's greater than if the pregnancy was terminated so if a woman goes in and she's like you know upset she's depressed she's saying I'll kill myself if I have to have this baby oh so you mean greater than the stress she would feel by having the aborted yeah oh well then that that basically is do it when you like Shirley because because you you could think you could think well I'll be slightly inconvenienced if I have this pregnancy and I'll be not bothered at all if I if I'll have the abortion and therefore pregnancy is a lot more therefore it's outweighed yeah of course and that's why there's like a weakness to it and that's why it's very difficult to kind of accurately judge but at the same time I don't think a pregnancy is a slight inconvenience all I would no I would never say that people even it even a significant minority people saying that but I'm saying it could happen am i right in thinking that basically means full intent and purposes you can have one I mean that's it that seems a non rule it all you have to do is say that you know I will be yeah the fact that there are rules that are meant to kind of deter you from just having an abortion on a whim but this is kind of like where I have mixed opinions like mixed feelings because on the one hand I'm like okay maybe this encourages people to be more responsible Bob I'm like you know what maybe it's not the role of abortion laws to decide whether people should be responsible or not maybe that's down to better sex education people need to be reminded that there are better contraceptive methods than abortion abortion is horrific and I don't think anyone goes into it lightly it is a last resort yeah exactly which is why I think this is possibly the best rule they can make in a minute that's the best for the most amount of people it's not perfect it's not going to be right for everyone but basically I wouldn't say it's without a good reason which it seems the Lord finds as a good reason yeah so there's there's your good reason to say I I think to be honest it kind of is a good reason because if a woman's not ready to have a baby she's not going to be a good parent that's what we're going to get to in a second that's the most that's the most important that's an arbitrary limit no does there's a hell of a lot of science in this yeah no I agree I agree yeah so that's there's a hell of a lot of like research going into this right and like it's still heavily debated no one set on anything in particular I just kind of want to talk to you about a few of these things for now and so I'll tell you a little bit about some of the research that's been done some of the things that they've found and then we can see what you think so there's quite a bit to take it but let's just go for okay most lawmakers agree that abortion can be carried out on fetuses and sorry until fetuses can be viable outside the womb that means that they could survive if they were taken out of the womb by themselves without like they it's it's really hard to describe this without gonna kind of like too technical but you know there is like life-support and stuff and you can help some babies breathe and things like that but there's a certain point where even that's not going to do anything and that is that's part of it part of its like yeah yeah so that that's that's kind of like one of the big issues I have because I've always said like you know as long as it's kind of reliant on the mother's womb and the body it is essentially like a little bit parasitic if you don't want it I I think it's very important to know that like when we attach like emotional kind of connections to things that differs but we'll get to that bit in a minute yeah when I when I say parasite I mean okay when I say parasite I mean like it's reliant on a host to survive and live and get its nutrients and everything it needs without the host it will die but is that does that devalue its worth well yeah I don't I don't mind the words I am saying you can talk the word for whatever you like but I'm saying does let's not use that word but does does the reliance on a host reduce then organisms worth well this is the thing it all comes down to this idea of like when does life begin when does it become a person and before we kind of answer that I want you to have a few more facts if that's okay no that's okay it's like I will kind of see how things go and but yeah like you say there is that that date has changed over the years as we become better equipped to deal with premature babies so now it's thought that soon as early as like 20 weeks could survive outside so that's something we need to consider especially with performing late term abortions but most of them are done before 13 weeks so even though the law is 24 weeks most of before 13 so I know I'm throwing out a lot of things here but the other thing is this idea of can the fetus feel pain so again this is like very heavily contested and there's a lot of different research and but one scientists believe that fetuses likely couldn't feel pain until 20 weeks and I'll get to why in a minute and I don't know what likely well this this is the thing this is what we get into so he was just like likely and but another guy called dr. Fisk who is a former president of the International fetal medical and Surgery Society said neurological research has convinced him that pain is not possible at all before 24 weeks because of how the brain is developed it just it doesn't have the cortex needed to kind of feel pain and dr. anand of and well he was a professor of pediatrics and anesthesiology and neurobiology at the university of tennessee's Health Science Center long title said he considered fetal pain and to kind of only likely arise at 18 to 24 weeks and when I say likely at this point is because different fetuses develop at different rates especially around the kind of like 20 week mark like no fetus grows at the same rate as another so some might develop it a week earlier than others and and then a 2005 paper for the Journal of the American Medical Association and written by a dr. Rosen said that fetal pain was unlikely before the third trimester at about 27 weeks so even though some fetuses could potentially develop it as early as 18 weeks most wouldn't until as late as 27 weeks and he says pain sensation required neural connections in the cortex of the brain which only begins emergent emerging around the 23rd week and is not functionally developed on the until the 26th or later so this said there are a lot of cases where after about 20 weeks if a woman has an abortion she is given like anesthetic and pain medication not with her but for the fetus yeah yeah and same if she has to have a late-term the bill abortion for any week so potentially yeah this thing is like not a lot of abortions are carried out at this late stage and most of them are only in emergency situations so take Utah for example in 2014 only 17 abortions in the entire of the state were carried out after 20 weeks yeah so it's not a huge amount but they're still obviously important you need to be counted right in some anything well paint pain pain is also problematic measurement I mean basically it's like you've referenced it as name the trait game you know may name the trait that a fetus does not have that if you did not have I could be justified in killing me and even if you say something like paint there are people who have physical abnormalities where they do not feel pain and such a person would you justify killing them because they don't feel pain not so you this is to take a person who has that condition which I'm sure we both familiar with where you don't feel physical pain it's very dangerous condition sounds amazing that it's incredibly dangerous but so you can envision a person who has that condition where they do not feel that pain and also are severely mentally handicapped so they don't experience psychological pain much either but the person is perfectly happy they're cared for they're living at they're living a life are you justified and stabbing that person to death ripping their organ from organ yeah and causing their day it's like human rights human rights exist then that question would you justify ripping that person with them from them no reason for because you couldn't be bothered to take care of it okay so I think anyone has an abortion because they can't be bothered well okay maybe some but I don't think perhaps okay that was looking at me because because you because you don't have the money to look after that person anymore society's thought I'm asking asking is that moral I I think is it is it justifiable to is it justifiable to kill that person I think it's it is going to be like weird to say but I think if you couldn't properly look after it and you know a handicapped disabled adult like that you could pass them on to a carer who would do that but the economic burden of that is incredible like it costs a hell of a lot of the government to look after people like that so if you can prevent someone having to go through that before they're alive I think you do it the question the question is to don't because we can't determine when they are alive what we're trying to consider you can't do it you can't say here's another thing to think about right okay so most abortions happen under 13 weeks so when when the fetus is 11 weeks old essentially right in the womb that's where most abortions take place like under that Muslim are in the first few weeks and so like I'd say like well 11 to 13 weeks this is why I start to have like kind of weird kind of issues because it looks like a little person okay it's got like little limbs it has a little head it's about this big but inside that it doesn't have any kind of like brain waves or consciousness it doesn't have a core text it doesn't really have like many like neurons or anything it doesn't have any proper connections in it but if it's a girl it already has all her little eggs and ovaries in there so you're not just carrying a potential wife you're carrying the potential for potential life it's kind of so is when pain receptors can be found in the skin it's about eight weeks there are pain receptors but it can't feel pain yet I just I I just yeah and do you do judge it on when it can breathe outside yeah so what one of the things sorry no God well-being especially pain well related but not saying well difficult takers for instance you could envision this this severely disabled person having well-being even though they can't experience pain sure so for me I think it comes down to kind of like a very like case-by-case basis like and I think this idea of like being human is I'm gonna – I think it is a kind of subjective thing on some levels especially when it comes to something you're carrying inside you because like I think a lot of the meaning we give to like a fetus comes from the meaning that we as Outsiders give it if that makes sense so when you look at like a little 11 week old fetus it's just developing vocal chords so is it just a bundle of cells that can do something that are growing or is a potential little person who's more in thinking to be talking to you well it's certainly but no matter what I mean promote the conception it's a potential person but that that alone doesn't justify that the hardline pro-life case you can't say because it's potential life did yeah because then anything is potential life yeah and that's why I think kind of like the emotional labels we attach to it do become really important I I think it's important that a baby is monitored for it to be born I'm a big believer in like I'm a big believer in quality of life over quantity I think it's better than a baby I would I would rather anyone be born into a happy loving family with people who can care for them than born addicted to drugs born with if it's before they can feel pain and know about it and have a consciousness yes but what about and what about mind this is why I really want to suppress you on my cases this severely disabled person no difference can't feel pain doesn't know what's going on I think there's a difference if it doesn't have a consciousness yet oh yeah okay then can you the consciousness okay this disabled persons this disables persons in a coma euthanasia I think that's fine but that person will awake from that coma in nine months they can't feel pain so you you want them to awaken to a life that they're gonna hate where they can't enjoy anything we've got the severely disabled person at the same present we had before that you said you'd feel tricky about killing it wasn't the skill wasn't a simple case to just go and kill that person a person is now in a coma from which they'll awake in nine months can you I just go and kill that person I think it depends on what quality of life they're gonna have after the coma you know I I am I know it's controversial but I am in favor of like assisted suicide euthanasia giving birth that valiantly happened to me I stopped breathing I didn't know yeah he's in a state fundamentally that's a different thing for wanting a child is going to have a good time based on the fact that you think it would be better for them not to be born into a world of drugs I think but I think like saved the mothers like addicted to heroin I think sometimes it can be horrible for a baby to what my mom yeah I was born from my mom who's severe alcoholic I was born into an environment that was just terrible yeah I wouldn't exist I would have been killed because but the German want you know okay so so my mom didn't want she just didn't know how to go around the abortion situation and I was born into an environment that was very bad and lots of drugs alcohol was specific this is why no I'm not saying things can't come this is why this is why let's let's not throw together a case where you you've got a permanently damaged cognitive ability and being born into difficult economic and social environment into poor socioeconomic backgrounds there's a good chance that you can still live each putting like I think even though these are examples of like cases it's difficult to say without talking about individual cases I think you know there's a case where that can be great but if your mother didn't want you and she was going to kill herself if she didn't get an abortion no I'm not saying it would be I'm not saying like I think abortion should before so I think abortion should be this or this I'm just saying if it's what the mother wants and it's and it's best for the baby I don't see why we should do it we have to be we have to be careful here because when you say something like if the mother was going to commit suicide then the abortion is okay well none of that child's life necessarily because if you're considering that child of life then there's no difference between that child being in the women outside yet so it's better that two people die instead of one no not necessarily so if that child were outside of the womb nobody would justify that mother killing the child to stop to stop the mother from killing herself at this kind of early stage if the child is suddenly out the womb it's dead anyway well but that's what I'm saying that's what I'm saying at what stage are we talking about well I I was thinking in this case like the 13 yeah yeah it's so no consciousness and can't feel pain right my position my current conclusion is that before there is a nervous system that is sufficient and that's a question to be had I do not see it as a human life we do not see as a baby I do not see a reason to call it as such it's a potential human once this sufficient well-being once this experienced yeah the same reason I don't pay for people to hurt I can't condone it because it is why why have you drawn why have you drawn the line there what did you say was your criteria for human human life me yeah consciousness and how are you quantifying that that like what do you want quality you're looking for in the child that needs to develop before is the human so you have pain receptors which develop reception to pain is what you're looking for specifically the the cortex aspect of it because there's a difference between having pain receptors having a B neural spinal connection which some things have and the cortex itself the course itself is which so say it's the experience of pain and it's about the pain is where wanting to draw my love it it is highly if you're in a coma you don't feel pain if I if I yep you've already lived your own experience why should that matter if your if your criteria for human life is whether or not it can experience pain no no it's your material in general experience for life in the early stages it's my criteria for what makes someone a human to begin with it's it's not to do with what why does it why does it matter if you've already experienced some pain and then stopped or if you just never experienced that pain what why is it the case why is it the case that if somebody does not experience pain and then continues not experiencing pain that net that person is never a human but a person doesn't experience pain then experience is a little bit of pain then goes back to experiencing no pain that person is all of a sudden a human eye don't think it it's just paint I think it's a whole mix of things like not being able to survive outside a room a lack of consciousness and a lack of pain so it has to be all of those things together so it's oh if it lacks one of those things it's still a human well it's a case-by-case basis like it's hard to say like where would you draw the line exactly like you know well I I'm I'm very comfortable with saying I don't I can't draw that line but but what I'm saying is you don't even have to ever make this decision no effect like okay I don't wanna play the gender card but you're lucky that you never have to make this decision I'm certainly lucky but but I also do I don't also don't see that as affecting my ability to reason but imagine you suddenly found yourself like with a little parasitic bundle of cells inside you that you didn't want and you knew that that was gonna grow and that's gonna change your body and that was gonna drain your resources like your physical resources and then you're gonna have to look after this thing for the next 18 years and it's gonna change your life is gonna change I think I think there's a word for that you know know if you're asking me what I would do if I felt if I if I became pregnant I I wouldn't I wouldn't want to be trying this into law or even into public morality but yeah I mean myself I I wouldn't be able to abort it no I well I obviously I can't speak until it actually happens I've had to take the morning-after pill I've if I like committed some terrible bad thing because I've know because I think that the view the view that the life begins at conception is as absurd as the view that life doesn't again until it pops outside the well no the reason that's the thing because I can't draw the line I basically say from the earliest point possible myself because of the fact that I don't know I would have to just treat it as though it were a potential human life and and treated as such like because I can't draw that line until I can draw that line I would be incredibly uncomfortable trying to draw that way so myself I would essentially it effectively any point along that pregnancy that I was experiencing myself I would have to say that I I don't think I could bring myself to abort it simply because I can't do that like are you are you the day after because you are drawing the line if you it's interesting because my natural instinct is to say yes that's fine you know so the line is being drawn somewhere but but look at where my line is being drawn it's being drawn very very very early the problem is like you're not taking into account like specific emotions and specific circumstances because emotions make us do crazy things I can sit here and say I think killings wrong I think this is wrong I'd never hurt anyone but imagine someone killed my dog like that's also why I don't like to make I don't like in philosophical discussions especially with abortion to say well what if you are in that situation don't think philosophical discussion I think it's a real-life discussion it affects in real life you can't talk about it in hypothet well I just I don't even talk about it in hypotheticals and say oh well what if this and was it because it's affecting real people everyday see the water soon is to push is to find out where these limits are no I've said that as well being there's no there's no other way to find out whether those limits are I think I think if I'm I'm not have you heard of the paradox of the heap of sand I put a grain of sand on the table as it a heap the sand okay yeah hey great you're like what about two three four the idea is when does it become a heap you see how you immediately start saying you don't know what what is the difference between the fifth grain of sand and that's exactly but that's exactly the problem that's exactly the problem if you had a if you had a moral rule that said I will not step on a heap of sand I won't do it just imagine you had that moral what I mean you avoid stepping on the sand is a good chance that once there's yeah is a grain of sand is the same as the next grain of sand so you're saying at what point does it become and in in in the same way I would say that like the reason I can't see something like pain reception as the criteria for humanity is because of the fact that if a living human being now were to lack that you'd still consider it a human and so what I'm saying is that in the same sense that it's no particular grain of sand that causes it to become a heap I don't think there can be a particular quality I don't think there can be a particular quality that a human develops that makes it a human it's a combination of all if you have a human who is technically brain-dead because they have no brain activity and they can't move and they can't function without life support you turn off a life-support and let them die perhaps but that that's not an easy moral decision and you still consider it a human life don't you abortions not anything wrong no one goes do you consider it a human life because remember the discussion was having what's the difference between a fetus on the third day that a human being used it for 20 years but happens to now be in a coma because they're not both grains of sand so what's what's the difference to you experience well you've got lots of experience to be to the many sounds of grant their grounds of sound which aren't the same thing is it's a cup of cells and at that point right the fetus I don't know the ins and outs maybe I mean so the processes of course so I know what you mean the expression of those kinds of cells in me or in that person's in a coma it's a far different there is 11 11 % units which is something I care about there's a level of self-sufficiency something you've mentioned there's other aspects in it but it's all of those aspects together that make something that's more than some of their parts the point I'm trying to say that I have a problem with your analogy is that the grain lies on each grain being the same they're the expressions of the grains and the human body the grains that build us up during our develop the reason that I use them analogy I see exactly what we're saying but the reason I still use that analogy and still stand by it is because it illustrates my view that there is no particular trait so it they may as well come in any order and be the same it's like in the same way that you can't choose the particular grain of sand that causes heap hood because they are all just the same cannot choose the particular trait so if the cause is human hood if all cells are equal if all just make us human do you have an issue with someone having a limb amputated if you have someone with an issue with someone having a bundle of like cancer cells no but in the same sense that if I had a moral rule not to step on a heap of sand I would have no problems stepping on a single grain but they're the same thing it's just no but this is what I'm saying this is why I want to get this analogy this is why I really want to get this analogy across I know what you let me let me try it let me try and finish this analogy look so you have a moral rule don't step on a heap of sand and what that moral rule represents don't kill a human life okay okay but let's say that it is for argument's okay because again look the discussion the discussion the discussion that we're having now remember we've got to separate this out the discussion we're having at the moment is how do we define what is a human life of course there are instances where you could say that that is a human life that should still be killed but such as in the cases of euthanasia but we need to be careful to define what we mean by human life so this is what we're this is the discussion we need to have first and so on that discussion okay do not step on a heap of sense is a moral rule that is analogous to saying do not kill a human life now I would be happy to step on a single grain of sand and I would be happy to take the morning-after pill but I cannot decide at which point I would stop stepping on those clumps of sand because I can't tell when they've become a heapin in the same way i'm incredibly uncomfortable deciding at what point that moral rule kicks in that you can't kill it it's now human I think we're all uncomfortable now of course but I promise to find out when it but the reason that I use that analogy is because it may be the case that we can't do that no I I think aspects of development we can verify certain aspects of development we have far more advanced signs than we think okay but what you can't but what you cannot prove although you can scientifically prove our stages of development you can't prove scientifically that it is those stages of development that constitute personhood okay maybe you can't make a hundred percent morally right or correct decision every time but you can do what's best for the people involved and sometimes that means making hard decisions sometimes that means making a moral decisions ultimately it might be better for the greater good for that that would make it aim that would make it a moral decision Wow seems to be day one no problem take a take a pill day to do it now no no no that's not that's not what I'm saying it's it's more like day one fine fine fine all day no god no in in between in in between I don't know okay so number two would be I don't know so the default position is no you can't do it shortly if there's any chance of that's a human being you have to have a the rule has to be not lean on not necessarily because the chance doesn't just because I'm saying you don't know doesn't mean that there's an equality of chance what's the default position when you say you don't know is the default position that limitation is the default position that this is not a knife you can end it until this sufficient proof the burden of proof is on the person to prove that it is a life or is it the other way around will you say until you have sufficient reason to show me that this is not a human however we may define it however we may look at this ground of saying that sound until that point the default position has to be that you must allow it to live because it has human rights because I'm not comfortable and you get away with this you want well I I'd have to say that in that instance and that is where you would have to make individual case-by-case discussions the reason being these well that's that's the thing so saying you don't know doesn't mean that you're 50/50 so on the second day I might say well I don't know if I'd say I don't know for sure on the first day I died genuinely I don't know only because that don't know represents a 99% 99.9% chance if that's not a life and a tiny percent chance that it is knowledge play it's it's it's it's a it's a claim it's the probability of I don't like the word probability it's the level of conviction that I hold but you hope that nevertheless that is a knowledge claim if you're making a statement of fact I'm not making as a matter of fact I'm making a claim of conviction so statement of belief I guess yes yeah exactly yeah and I believe enough you maybe you know know but that's the problem so my belief on the first day is that my belief on the first day would be would be airing on the side that it's fine you know do as you please that's not a life it's simply the more grains of sands that you add the more that probability shifted towards the middle and I'm afraid I simply can't name a day or a time it's like just let me let me ask you the same question because obviously you don't have you don't share my view so let me ask the question in terms of analogy so let's say you had that rule not to stuff on the heap of sand when would you stop stepping on the heap of sand period if my rules I don't want to stand on it I didn't Brittany do you think it's a bad analogy because it doesn't take into account like the specialization of cells and cells becoming organelles and cells becoming until I see what you're saying but I'm saying until you can show me which of those particular cells or trait is the thing that constitutes personhood then I don't think developing consciousness is to do with pain receptors that's the thing I don't find that convincing okay I don't buy that for that for the reason that if you're taking that trait in isolation then you could justify killing someone in a coma but it but you're not taking them in isolation that's the thing you're looking at the whole it so if I say to you okay we're gonna remove a bundle of cells from you that doesn't have a consciousness that can't feel pain and that it could grow it could develop more but you know as a minute it's looking like it's gonna do more harm to your life than good would you be okay with me taking that from you yes yeah that's what the frita sister some people of course to do yeah and it is to me of many many stages if that if that if that piece of me if that piece of me were on the road to becoming a human life and I wasn't sure at what stage along the path that was then I don't know if I could justify that there's a pain it's a completely different situation you do know what stages are well I know what stage that is that which is stage zero and never will progress I mean that's fine you can do an ultrasound to see where the babies are or where the fetus is right but you can't you can't scan the human hood you can just define personhood in and roll but we shouldn't do but you know in the same way that you just asked me well is your belief really enough to justify killing a human being and I was like actually you know I think you're right it's not in the same sense is your belief or your consensus and what constitutes in heard really enough to justify the chance of possibly killing a human so I don't think that is either I I think it's very different when it's your own body though okay should we try this another way I wonder just quitting on to discussion yeah could you repeat the question for me so you said that there definitely will to make this question Clara there's there's something I just want to try it and can you define human being you won't you won't necessarily accept my deposition but that's why I'm interested okay so for the intent of this conversation my current knowledge okay listen no okay okay so if you can't define you some definitions but they're not going to be very sensitive you can't define human and you've also recognized that that the quality of personhood of being a human is incredibly important to the abortion debate then how can you have an opinion on the abortion debate if you can't define human hood because remember I don't I'm for the vegan philosophy right the vegan philosophy doesn't she give a special get-out-of-jail-free card to humans it falls down into the purview of well-being as soon as something has a cortex especially in prefrontal cortex that is where I say I won't eat that me okay that animal so me who the question isn't is it a human it's kind of okay for me it is about pain I don't give a shit to be blunt well if you were giving birth to a grasshopper right will it be moral to abort the grasshopper we did have the same level of moral weight I would ask the same questions does it have pain receptors to what levels of sentience if you had worms would you feel bad about taking medication for them taking medication isn't to get like where's the closest he could get to giving birth to a grasshopper well well I wouldn't have a problem with taking that medication but that's because I'm not defining this on the basis of pain I'm basically I'm defining on the basis of the personhood it's it's you Steven who's defining it on the basis of pain so really that question should be aimed to you would you have a problem with taking medication for the worms if they if they are sentient and can feel pain you can make separate argument will you okay but what if one is then it were the case that if you were to leave those worms and not take the medication they would grow into beings more sentient and more capable of feeling pain than you are now I don't care about this good so you have no problem taking their medication okay fine yeah and the other would I and either die so just just once your analysis there's no problem I'm confused because there has to be some kind of some kind of element that you were ever in your position to well this is in order to say you're on day one you will no problems but then somewhere else you could change your mind I have to understand that logically means there is something you might not go to name it and that's fine yeah but there is something you're right now you are right but feel like you're kind of at the position of like well you're like I don't know where human life begins so we better let it live just in case until someone that's and I think I think for me it's more like it's not a separate human life until you can prove it is with you know consciousness and so on but just just consider for a moment if you're wrong there just think about it that's wrong which is why my default position you think I agree with that but yeah and and because of the patent I agree with you there but and because of the fact that I cannot provide sufficient reason that a fetus at any particular part along the process say 13 weeks 14 weeks I cannot provide sufficient reason to show that that is not a human life and so based on your criteria there yeah I wouldn't be able to avoid so if I so so what so what so what's your if you just said a moment ago grouper Stephen that you have to prove that that's not a human life yeah so how would you go about proving it's not a human life I'm not saying like I think to a certain point like I say until it can survive outside the hosts body on the mother's body until it has a consciousness of its own until it has like pain receptors of its own until its brain has reached a certain stage of development and so on it is a bunch of cells relying does it have to be all of those things what can it just be one of those things makes it a practical every single one so it's so if the baby had every single one of those things I think except one I think there are some exceptions but on the whole it's just as much as the attempt from the attention from the mum inside because it does immediately it's not sufficient yeah I mean like I'm just curious like I said at a certain point like it's things like it lungs can't inflate and deflate by themselves it can't breathe by itself that they can't since is basically the reason that that's the problem is because the baby would die were it not for the mother but that's exactly the same when it's outside of the world the baby would die if not for the umbilical cord well well no the the umbilical product the umbilical cord would be worth nothing if the mother was dead the mother consciously provide sustenance yeah but while the baby's inside it's unconscious and without her permission actually yeah but it's done with permission outwards mm-hmm I I think it's a woman I accept the pregnancy and chooses to carry on with the pregnancy to full turn and it's with permission and consent well we've got to two things that are important so you've got this definition of human surely both for driving at but did you my besties do you not see why why that might be a flawed way to determine the ethic of abortions I am kind of conscious of time and there was something else quite big I want to bring up if that's okay that's fine and that's to have a look at kind of like the effect of abortion on the UK as a whole sure thing so my statistics are a little bit old now because the most detailed ones I could get with in 2013 okay like for all these things I want to talk about I'm gonna throw some numbers at you and there could be quite a lot and then I want to kind of like discuss this so in I'm kind of rounding up my numbers here cuz they're quite big but they are very specific and I have all the references as well and I imagine you'll link the description below and so throughout the year in England and Wales alone there were a hundred and eighty-five thousand abortions in total it's estimated that they cost the NHS about one hundred and twenty million pounds a lot of people have issues with taxpayer money going towards that however in that same year um where are we there were nearly 70 million children in care at any one time right mm-hmm I know you're not gonna like this but let me go with this all right no it's fine I think I see where you're going yeah if you look at the cost of every child in care and you look at the cost of like you know fostering kids kids in residential care and so on and the care system is already like stretched to hell and it's thought that there's like literally like a hundred and fifty thousand vulnerable kids who aren't getting the help they need and just completely hypothetically like I know I said I didn't like them but if we are going to use a hypothetical let's imagine that all those unwanted babies were born and put into the care system that would put an extra burden of a minimum of 10 billion pounds on the UK okay do you think the reason that people who are pro-life are against taxpayer money going to abortions is because of the amount of money it costs do you think that's why they oppose taxpayer money going towards abortions no I don't think it's the amount I think it's the fact that it's going to be bullshit yeah but I'm saying but that that's not the argument here the fact I I'm saying is that abortions cost us 120 million if we put all those kids in care because they're not wanted it would cost us at least you know you know what else but you know what else would save the NHS a lot of money is when somebody has a terminal illness killing them immediately yeah can I just add to what you're saying if for example you're having a conversation with me showed the sentence yeah somebody was saying I know you're not saying this but somebody was saying we can order that time and I say why and I'm concerned about the well-being yeah or someone else might be concerned about in fitting the definition of a human and your answer is a consequentialist economic one oh it's a non sequitur to me because I'm concerned about the 180,000 kids could have gone into care well I care I care about the fact that however many kids it was could have gone into life as well yeah yeah but overpopulation already it would just be a drain but you could say the same thing over population isn't justification for killing old people would you so shouldn't be justification for killing young people either would you like to live in a world where when you could have been the case that you came from someone in poverty and you just dispensed with all my family didn't have a lot of money yeah yeah are you saying the only reason I'm still here is because my mom didn't believe in abortion okay yeah but I'm just saying from a very personal perspective if it was a choice between me having a kid now when I'm not economically stable when I couldn't devote time and care to it and me having a kid in five ten years time when hopefully I will be economically stable and I can give time and care to it I would rather do it then okay and I don't see why I should be denied the right to abort a fetus now no it's just in case an accident let me answer why I think that for me the question has nothing to do with anything of what you've just said but it is purely whether or not it's a human being the reason for that is because if it's a human being it's no different than being a woman being outside of the womb the lives of everyone else involved no well it's not because because look let me let me let me put it let me put the exact same question to you if let's say that we decide that this child that this fetus is alive let's say that that's the case there's no difference between that being inside the women outside the womb the only difference is dependency on the mother degree of dependency because it's still dependent so let's say the baby is outside of the womb and the mother decides that it's too much fun of an emotional burden to know that that child is alive can that mother kill the baby well no that's why we have the care system but then that's an emotional strain on this one like society what if the mother what if the mothers to get rid of the kid early before it had consciousness what if what if the emotional what if the emotional stress not comparable what if the emotional stress is knowing that that child is alive then she should have been allowed an abortion earlier but what if she didn't know that that stress would come about she thought it would be fine she had the baby turns out his far more stressful than she thought mm-hmm then the kid goes into Karen she gets treatment and help it's a sad horrible what what if you're going to say that because that that's fair enough that but it almost sounds but it almost sounds a bit part it almost sounds a bit harsh to say well then I'm sorry the kid just has to say like I'm going to care and you're just going to have to get help but surely you could say the same and say well I'm sorry you're just going to have to have the kid and then you go and get help and I'm not saying that's my view I'm just saying if you're going to take the logic to its conclusion that's the I don't think you can compare like a bundle of cells in the womb to an already born child that's what I'm saying you can't compare them but that's what it that's what I'm saying well then it gets more complicated yeah yeah and then that so that do you see what I do you see why then tell me from just if you take the fact that it has whatever you want to define it he will be out 25 weeks and it also has all of those factors 25 weeks after it's born I think the point you were trying to make and you damned if I'm incorrect is that whether or not it's inside the room let me elucidate what I mean loose it won't thank you because you're right that I mean that's the point that I've made but that's not necessarily the exact point I was making here because you were talking about the economic benefit and and I completely agree with you with what you just said that bundle of cells that if that if that's a non-life yeah absolutely there was no reason why woman should be forced to take that to term that's still talking about this like early stage abortion I'm not comparing like a baby just bought what I'm saying is if we decide that that is a human life then everything changes all of a sudden you can't just say then because of economic burden it needs to be aborted as soon we decided I'm saying because of the potential economic burden that's why abortions should be available yes when when as long as so long as that fetus is not a human life and that's why I'm saying it's absolutely crucial that we determine what we mean by human life because it changes I can't do it see an icon okay so you can't define a human he's a chimp a human okay I mean you know semi facetious here there is no you're making it you're making a great point and and okay let's say that you can't define a human can I can I can i phrase it slightly differently I can't define what it is that begins personhood if I could then this abortion debate would be over in a moment so you could be a human without personhood well I'm kind of using personhood in human hood interchangeably there when I when I say you're a person I mean you're a human for this conversation in this context no no my dreams still stand to that No well I I don't know but here's the thing so for the same reason either okay so can I ask you what why you would say a chimp is not a human okay right but let's just just for sake because this will help me make my point could you do that if I asked you to independent of the abortion argument can you can you tell me what it is that differentiates a human and a chimp biologically speaking sure or what gets the human human hood whatever that means whatever that means to you so the human hood is more of a deeper question right about what it means to be here and that that's what I'm going for whereas you could say a human is and you could go towards our biological but give me the first give me the human hood I don't need to if I ask you to and I no no that's irrelevant to what you're saying but just I think could you do it reduced Herald important aspect no I know and that that's why I'm asking you this independently at the abortion question so I know this doesn't matter to you but because it does to me right would you would you feel it fair for me to say that that's something that is almost impossible to do it's it's you cannot just define that point of transition saying that it's almost impossible to pin from where it is it's not the same as saying we know nothing know exactly okay exactly but you can't pinpoint that that moment so in the exact same way in precisely the same way this is why I said wouldn't you answer this question I cannot pinpoint the point that the the clump of cells turns into a human being that doesn't mean that we can't know something about the difference and that's why at day one I can say that it's okay in a day 20 and a week 25 is not so close to the main point of trying to get across to you here is I appreciate what you're saying with with not knowing where the line is and not knowing how is the default position in my opinion tell me if it's wrong therefore is the you cannot kill it until you can justify where it is not whatever you define a human to be you seem to agree with that okay can I say that I because you follow it from the last day there being in the womb to the second day okay you don't on the thoughts out so remember how a moment ago when I when I said that I myself would not be able to walk that child but I wouldn't want to entrain that into law or public morality okay so when you asked me does that mean that your default position is that you should not abort that child yes but but I wouldn't wish to impose that morality upon society until I can prove that with anything other than my emotional default positions my emotional state is not the thing on which to base law and public violence the thing is like let's bring this back to reality for a minute it's like you keep saying I don't know this I don't know this no offense it's because you haven't studied it like there are people out there who are devoted their lives to study I don't I don't I don't I don't think that's I don't think that's necessarily true because they study biology that there are people out there who literally will study the stages of being a fetus and they no offense but they study abortions they study when it's okay to have an abortion when it's not native of their life statistic they study the development of fetuses they they study like all the minor details of when the brain develops when it doesn't this this they they studied the pain this is it they study the effects of abortions on women on this on this and they're the ones who will make has come to to help them out so I would respect the law in that I would still say that those people are not necessarily closer to knowing what personhood is that they're closer to knowing it than any of us well perhaps but but in the same sense for instance there are people who have spent years devoting their life to things like moral philosophy for instance are they any closer to knowing whether or not objective morality exists than we are I don't I don't think you can say that I I think Gary if when you when you took that's the thing I'm not talking about biology I think I don't think when when it comes to deciding about people and lives and when humanity yes it comes down to biology I think I don't think personhood is solely in the realm of biology I think that you have to philosophize about what it means to be young I think everything and I don't think I don't think that an evolutionary biologist has any better idea of what actually mean what it means to be a human and when you can define something as beginning as a human then then I do know I don't think you can say the point you're making about this people that really studied this they had the scientific facts that is scientific based scientific questions and they way more but Alex's question is not when does the well being developed it's more about why should that be the criteria in the first place and that's a philosophical keep finding full of philosophy learning just like to be fluff like there's no blink actual basis for it okay so maybe maybe this where do you why do you agree where the line should be assuming would you say 20 weeks or where would you say you've been annoying oh and I am Not sure I have like a definite line in mind at the minute because like I'm still learning this yeah yeah at the minute I like the idea about thirteen weeks okay wait but I'm willing to change Y thirteen as I said because of whether baby or what why the fetus is in development like no brain no consciousness you saw why do you care about the consciousness why do you care about those elements that you've just realized because that's the metaphor philosophical because the consciousness is what we're aware of but why did why does that matter is it is the question matter what why does that matter do you worry much to some of that if we agree that is the criteria of what makes a human it complete becomes a scientific question and these do we have the answers to the largest extent because the research had been done and we're fortunate enough to have our hand really on this but what we're finding is the we and others don't agree on that philosophical structure to begin with we don't even those experts don't agree with each other course and so that's where we realized the you in essence finally human as those traits which developed during that time I define not human but just anything we should be considered with rights sentience at a certain time and then once I've made that philosophical position and someone accepts that philosophical position decides to show where that starts where is you have some definition for human you have some definition from where they're stars you just don't know what it is well I don't have that definition I just I know that there is a difference yeah I know there is a difference like my view on abortion can be summed up in one fairly simple and concise phrase which is that the view that life begins at conception is as absurd that as the view that it doesn't begin until it is released from the whim how can you say that how do you mean how can you say that statement without referring to knowledge or defining in human because I know that the because I know the grain of sand is different from the heat even when I can't say when one becomes the other this it's not two cells that make something even but it's not two grains of sand that make a heat they could be it could be it could be a few define life that way but you wouldn't would you and you wouldn't define two grains of sand as a heap I there I I do you recognize that I can say that a grain of sand is not a heat and say that a heap of sand is a heap without having a precise definition of when that grain becomes the heap just because I recognize a difference doesn't mean that I know where that crossover has or even that there is a place where that crossover happens it's a very different analogy to cells and a baby though I see more like you know a grain of rice in a burrito when does it become a burrito because another fine question actually in fact that probably a better analogy but in the same sense I couldn't tell you I really couldn't yeah why have you decided that day one represents one grain and the day two represents two grains why isn't grain one well you you can say the fact yeah okay no but look look you can do that if you want because the you could you could put that first grain of sound at the beginning of the universe because of the fact that I see that one zygote that fertilized egg is no different from the sperm cell both of those are not human life to me so you could you could put the grain of sand wherever you want just if you put it put it this way if you put the grain of sand it's the sperm cell instead of the zygote then the zygote is the two grains of sand but those two grains of sound is still not the heat you can you can start it wherever you like it seems to me when it comes to the grains of sand which we should probably be careful with your words there I am conscious of time thing we should wrap up soon that's okay you sure okay well I I was gonna end by asking you some kind of like sort of like some of surely questions it was like what do you think of this but I'm kind of worried you're gonna get like oh we could try it quick from our if you like I mean if you want you can have you can have the vetoes you you take you you give us a you give us a less about kind of like the deep stuff and the philosophy and more about just like what your instincts say about these like situation quick-fire abortions abortions what it's just I know I thought they were kind of like interesting questions related to the whole topic of abortion and I care more about your opinion on what's right or wrong so let's imagine a woman takes all the kind of like caution she's she's on the pill she's all using some of the birth control she's using condoms but something happens the condom rips the pill fails what it happens and she accidentally gets pregnant and what's an abortion is that somehow worse then if a woman is raped and gets pregnant and what's an abortion it's only different so it depends on whether or not it's human life and and if it is human life if it what if it's not human life if it's not human life makes no difference because there's no human life you can do what you like with it if it is human life and then the question is exactly the same to me you might disagree with this but if you want my answer then the question is exactly the same as if that child was outside of the womb this is the mother anymore justified in killing that child if she was raped to have the child or if she had it by accident or however you like is there more of a justification perhaps there is more of a justification but it but whatever that justification difference is it's the same as if that child was outside of the womb agree with Alex quite think but only if it's lying emphasis on the woman's feelings obviously a difference for the woman carrying to term obviously there's a factor in that as well as far as the baby or the fetus is the answer to one horrible unspeakable act another horrible unspeakable act which if it is human life if it is human life killing a child it's is that the answer okay so that's just like really weird because when you said horrible and speak up a lot I thought yeah be mates like carry your rapists that's what I was talking about I think so I said that's what I'm saying if one horrible unspeakable act like that yeah but then when you said I for an ayah I thought you meant killing so I was like oh you mean killing the kid like it I'm saying it is that like what they are – they are – if if that is a human life then killing it is a horrible unspeakable act and so can you KITT can you commit that horrible and speak of like because you've been the victim of another horrible and speak like I don't know the answer that question not much do you think what I was just going to say that if this is what's wrong with Adam and Eve this same kind of nonsense that's what's wrong with us someone else inherits okay yes haratz together the father rapes the woman should the child be punished for this is it worse that the child is never born or that the child grows up feeling like it's the child when monster who has never wanted if its life and the child is like has like sort of like passed on guilt from the father if that makes sense if it's life then I don't think it should be terminated for the sake of avoiding that really because I again this is why I think this way I would rather be alive and be the son of a rapist than heed a CI I am big on the whole like quality over quantity thing I don't I would even if I agree with you there I think that the quality of being alive outweighs the quality of being the son of a rapist now obviously I I cannot say that with any certainty but if we're speaking as much testicle and we have to then that would be my my I think it is subjective it's a very subjective topic yes where's your default position because you saying does your voice in concern yeah and you were saying no I prefer still to be born but I don't want just to be clear I don't want people to think that I that I you saying pretending pretending like I know at all what that must be like I have no idea speaking in terms yes okay for me the default is that the woman knows what's best for her and her body but does she know what's best for was in her body yes I I think I want to knows what's best potential catch the thing is if that is a human life it's like saying you know I beat up a dog in my back garden it's my garden that's my choice oh no I disagree entirely why what's that what what's the difference there okay there's because if you beat up a dog in your garden you're not doing it for any reason other than to beat up a dog because it cuz I mean because I enjoy it cuz I can't afford to keep that dog I can't afford to keep that dog I need to beat it to death you don't need to beat it okay i strangle it then I stop it I kill it quickly yeah no you don't do that you'd go you'd give it away if it's already alive if it's ill you could potentially use a nice I don't if you have a living being inside of you you can give birth to it and then give it up for adoption – yeah and that's so much worse for the kids well-being some well what if it's worth whether it's worth with a dog's well-being if I'm gonna give it to some shelter where it's not gonna be adopted in live in a cage for the rest of its life why not just kill it my Gardens my choice some places do kill it but there's a difference between like beating it and killing it and like euthanizing nicely okay well let's just say let's just say that I did I well let's say that I do it in the same way that a child is aborted I'd rip its legs apart a child isn't aborted by like ripping it's like if it's a late enough abortionists okay yeah sure well I'll do that first time and then I'll rip it apart you know how important works right like and those late stage abortions like rarely happen like and they're only in like extreme cases where the kid is already like okay well I will kill I will kill that dog in whichever way that pregnancy is terminated whether that be by injection by suction whichever stage you take a pill in your womb whining falls out I give the dog a pill in it and it disappears from existence can I do that I wouldn't advise it but but why not that's the thing what you mean why would you not advise that well like it's already alive it's got the consciousness but that's what I'm saying that's why it's so important if it's already alive you're like you say because it can never look it's already alive you can't do that and so that's what I'm saying it's absolutely crucial that we know when the life begins you know Stephen I think even if I agreed with your objective morality about well-being and the importance of it I still don't think that that would render me in agreements with you here really because although I agree that that even if I agreed that well-being is a good criteria for criterion for wellbeing for morality I don't necessarily think it's a good criteria for human hood we've just kind of we just kind of like gone off the rails a bit which is or which I think makes for a good conversation with my it's a different conversation from what I expected I also have I've also been coming out with different opinions from what I expected like Jesus Christ I'm very surprised that some of the all three of you conversations have been a surprise to me Marie does sound like a bitch I don't know sound like that's me kill all the babies if anybody's gonna get cooled a bitch of this conversation it's gonna be me you baby oh god yeah like you can mean how many how many of your of your views do you think all my viewers will Stephen pubis maybe well I can't speak for seen in two years but how many of my viewers do you think a pro-life I mean really I mean really you know III can't see this ending particularly well but I warn you I have like 80% female viewers now they're all like young women in their 20s so they're gonna be like you don't have a right over my body and no I have a right before what's in it oh oh yes yes something I've said but it's been really interesting to see how we've approached this topic hmm you know the mothers they may feel that me and you have completely neglected their experience in this and we rushed it aside and that's true to the extent because me and you were more of a conversation about the life itself and when it a certain light when it has a position where it does not matter about those circumstances where is you have consistently brought in an angle you have these considerations yeah I do think it's difficult because like as I said before I don't to play the gender card I think it's very different when you're considering these hypotheticals about your own body or do you think that perhaps being emotionally attached to a situation makes you put you in a worse position in any other issue you would say that if you have an emotional investment you're not in the best position to reason on it the best thing you can do in most philosophical cases is to remove yourself that's the thing that's why I don't think this is like a purely philosophical case like and this is just me and I do think emotions play a huge part in any woman's decision to continue a pregnancy or have an abortion and that's why I don't think you can discount emotions and I wish we had more time because the way that you've said that it's like well I don't think you can necessarily discount the opinion as the man if you're gonna if you're gonna agree yeah and the opinion of the man that you have more time to explore that I think there's different way to that yes I I think when two people are involved in creating a baby both of them deserve a saying and I do I do agree with that but I also kind of also understand that a mother at a mother's opinion is slightly we can discuss another time while we're doing some qualifying here I'd like to qualify that for this whole conversation right my view is very much being I don't know how many times I said I don't know this situation but really this is just been a case of me throwing out food for thought I I I find say that I have a strong opinion on this and like you say Stephen if you if you have to make a default rule then perhaps I do have a default rule but as far as making a philosophical case I don't think I'm in a position to dictate public morality or law I have to say that at the end of the conversation I I still don't think that I've come to a conclusion myself but I'm also unconvinced by the arguments that both of you put forward myself and I hope I've explained why they don't quite do it for me I think the only thing I find this satisfying about that it might be just my own problem here with interpretation is that you haven't expressed nearly sufficiently what criteria you are basing this on because the fact that you would abort it on day one but not afterwards means that there is something is just it's not been expressed yeah but but a fact that you say you don't know isn't good enough to justify that you've got a definitive position on that point but I I have as definitively position on that as I do about the grain of sand in the heat as you've just saw I have I haven't as I have as as much I have as much certainty that a grain of rice is not a burrito but that a full burrito is a burrito even though I couldn't tell you when one becomes the other but you want an amine there is some element of change between one day one and day two I suppose but that wouldn't necessarily be a change and that in the chain that brings about burrito hood and I don't necessarily think there is a single point at which that happens I think it's a culmination and I think it's the same thing with personhood and that's why I can't put my finger on it and even if it were possible to do so we wouldn't be it it would be incredibly difficult to find even if it were possible which I don't think it is okay so Rachel's position is potentially but I special circumstances yeah I I think it's a case-by-case basis that this conversation definitely took like a different so twist to what I expected because like for me I talked about abortion and like is not a philosophical issue of like when life becomes life I think that's I'm you that is important and I think you to have definitely opened my eyes to some things like I didn't like to think about in detail before and I appreciate that and like a lot and as much as I'm like for lots of piece of fluff I don't really mean that sometimes I just get a little bit frustrated because like I I it's just a kind of person I am I like to talk about the kind of like real-life consequences of things I like to talk about the people how it makes people feel I like to talk about how it affects real people's lives in a region like the only thing I would say in response to that is that I'd be happy to discuss those things but I couldn't possibly tell you how important it so you could talk about for instance the economic impact and then you could tell me the numbers but I cannot tell you what those numbers say about the ethics of killing an unborn child unless I have the philosophical frame with them what you do so I mean you could tell me that by aborting a chart that that by setting the limit at 23 weeks you would save billions of pounds even on that not if you gave me that number I still it could not tell you that's moral until I am just like grandma talk about how it makes you feel thorns like do you not just get a feeling that something is good or bad that's when Steven asked me what I would do first of all what you know you asked me what I would do personally I think that's what I did but the reason I brushed over that quickly is because I don't think that that is I don't think that that's a way that I should be making my moral decision-making I don't think I should be doing it based on emotion no no you might that's fine but I can work for you by family I think when we are talking about an issue like abortion that is how people have to make their decisions it is emotionally charged they do have to think about these things they they can't be completely informed on the philosophy of everything most people aren't yeah because they are see I think me right yeah I I think I think the laws actually are a little too lenient at the minute but I think yeah but I think compared to like the u.s. we are my good news 13 weeks yeah I'm happy for people to go a bit over in certain circumstances but that's the thing there is more research being done all the time like and I actually support and the 24 weeks maybe been lowered a bit closer to twenty two or twenty at the minute but we'll just kind of have to see where things go like that the formulas lawmaking is slow and changes are slow and science is a big eye it's difficult because what you're saying I mean I told you that because I'm so unsure my morality says that it's better to be safe than sorry okay but day two you can't but I couldn't bring myself to say that that would be a rational law I would say that what you would have to do is you'd have to find the rough area in which you think human hood begins and then push it back so you're in the safe zone but because having said about that criteria where do you put it it's okay if you say day two I just want to eat you know I can't bring myself to do it because if you put me in a Legislative Assembly with a pen and parchment you write down I couldn't do it but I don't know is that because you don't feel you know enough about like the biological development or okay no it's to do person trip with with personhood which is a philosophical issue that I am in no position to judge oh okay but for that reason perhaps if you held a gun to my head and force least I'd have to be safer than sorry but I couldn't comfortably just push it on you one day – distinction here how about I say I won't come back at all no you're on sir day one or day two how about I say somewhere between no somewhere somewhere between just after that giving enough time for immediate action to be taken somewhere there okay it's such an uncomfortable thing to talk about but III want to think about it more before I say something that I regret you know and I want people to be aware of the fact that this is very much me airing my uncertainty I'm hoping that anybody listening to this can hear the specific arguments that I'm making and perhaps suggest even if they disagree like you disagree with my criteria for abortion but I don't understand well okay fair enough but to those to those who understand what I'm saying even without agreeing with it I'm hoping that some of those listening will perhaps be able to advise me on how I am how I can flush out that philosophy and how I can flesh out that date based on based on what I've said but I'm sure that give it a year and I might be able to put a date on that for you I don't want people to go away thinking that because I've danced around the idea that it might be a plausible outcome to effectively ban abortion to this ridiculously early degree that that's when I think life begins because that's not the case no you haven't said that's not what understand I won't know one let's be very clear I'm just saying that until we can be certain it's not something that we can just be roundabout about it's something we need to be incredibly careful because just consider for a second what happens if the pro-life is a right what happens if the Catholics are right that life really does begin at conception then we're committing a holocaust every day if they're right and they're there like I would wager that they're definitely wrong but if they are right if they are right then this isn't just a matter of philosophical inquiry this is the most important issue of our time and so it's not something that we can treat lightly and that's why I'm so reluctant to say that I can set a limit that's based on the development of pain receptors or the development of consciousness because if I'm wrong about that and it's my hand that's made that law then I have too much blood on my hand to count and that's not something I hope the only factor I'd say that that very honorable position neglects is the mother because it is necessary that these questions are asked and they're dealt with otherwise the women may indeed be suffering yeah and the child may suffer afterwards being born except the right yeah because that question has been you know that makes this a moral emergency as something that we need to talk about more and nobody wants to talk about it because everybody's too scared you ride that got the pro lifers who are too scared to say that they believe that abortion should always be illegal for fear of repercussion and you've got the pro choices who were too scared because they're scared of the Religious Right coming for them you know you said we need to have specific knowledgeable then maybe you would argue the same as me but I can see people say and actually you're wrong people are having these conversations they are recognizing it as the emergency it was as what it is these conversations have been had they are being have had right now they're being developed you are just ignorant on it I do think because yeah yeah there's one important topic that we haven't touched on today that I just wanted very very briefly mention and that's the fact that even if we did make abortion illegal people would still find a way to do it because some people are desperate same thing with murder same thing true but it's better that things are done in a safe way that's better for the mother and the baby surely you can play the same murder but abortion is incredibly safe when under medical assistant yes when it's done by cocaine what it's not safe for the baby it's not for the baby of course but we're just talking over here but it might better look with this is why I just reiterate why it's so important that we determine whether or not this is life because if this is life then it's the same as if it's outside of the womb and if you're going to say well if you don't let that mother kill that three year old in a hospital then they'll do it but also the baby as well right so often and women in the past one of Washington's legal would try and abort themselves and fail and the baby would end up just figured they would end up her isn't it better that a baby I would say is killed before it can feel pain then it has born into a life where it's just bigger by its much well no one that we're effectively asking the same questions are asking the earlier and that's tough yeah it's going to be a long thing to get into I know it's tough anyway this is very long all comers have died things are screwed up it like we've we've been filming all day like I what time do I get here this one it was like 11 a.m. or something it's no warning so it's been a long day yeah and I think we're all kind of argued out but and go check out on them and I'm on get out I read to go home and cuddle my dog that's the only baby I want go night bus now not that it matters see what I'm missing out there then you move to my channel link is in the description I trust just promote yourself for me after don't know I'm go go watch the video over in Stevens channel and go check out Stevens tunnel because it's really good like yes I guess you could go look at all exhibit oh if you want if it's if you want you horrible misogynistic racist I do hope this conversation yeah I on break for you both taking part yeah this has been fun it's been appreciate it tough but fun I've enjoyed it thank you so much guys no thanks to you too thank you for listening I did good as I lost it this long

22 Replies to “Abortion Discussion ft. Cosmic Skeptic & Rationality Rules”

  1. I know it has little to do with this video but I just wanted to throw this out on the back of the vegetarian / vegan debate: my jacket in this video is faux leather, not real. Don't worry, no cows were hurt for a little jacket! πŸ™‚

  2. Sometimes I feel as if Alex is playing devil's advocate. He may be pro-life, but at least he's intelligent pro-life and not close-minded. I was quite surprised he wasn't pro-choice. It was funny that the men kept philosophising and Rachel was trying to drag them back to reality.

  3. Good example of mansplaining in this episode. I like Alex but I was watching his eyes…most of his direction was to Stephen. Women tend to backdown/shutup when men talk over them. I have also learnt that men do not usually understand women's issues ie., as Rachael said, 'They cannot understand the emotional aspect'. That being said both of these guys were the best of a bad lot. But I do favour Stephen. Moral of the story…possibly never listen to men discuss issues subject to women. Alex, 'I do not have a right over your body but I do have a right over what's in it'. Alex has gone down in my opinion. Go Rachael…well done!

  4. I find there is no real persuading others. Everyone is hardened in thier opinions. And facts flying around. And either way, it's still pro- choice that can encompass both the life and the choice..

  5. Hmm I'm pro-abortion but Alex really has a point. So now I'm sort of against abortion but I would vote in favour of it since I don't want to change my mind over a single discussion haha

  6. All seemed well except for the them trying to dehumanize the fetus . The fetus is a potential human being. The use of the words like parasite and clump of cells seems like more of an excuse to just the killing of a living being by lowering it's worth.
    Also it would of been nice if they talked more about the taking responsibility for someones actions. Like taking responsibility and becoming a parent and raise a responsible human being. Wouldve been interesting in hearing their views on that .

  7. I always cringe when I hear guys talk about abortion rights, no matter how logical they try to make it. It's womens choice and their collective opinions in the matter that should decide this.

  8. Ha Ha Ha! Finally ~53:00, they come down from the high horse of logic and realize that it is simply a matter of belief whether you call one day old zygote life (human) or not! There is no one rule fits for all as they would claim, this is the ultimate death nail of Moral Landscape Project.
    Their arrogant trust in their "intellect" and "rationality" will still not let them admit the defeat. I am not pro religious pro lifer. Such decisions should be left up to the women, she will decide depend upon her hormones and personal circumstances, health issues around herself and the fetus. All Pro-lifers can do is to create a demonstrable and proven friendly environment of support for the mother and baby: to tilt at least one factor in their favour.

  9. Any human who is trying to outlaw abortion needs to, today, go to an abortion clinic and adopt a baby that would otherwise be aborted. Until they put their money where their mouth is they have no room to talk.

  10. To be honest I’m tired of hearing a man’s opinion on abortion especially when he knows so little about how the female body works or how pregnancy works…..maybe they should butt out there’s no laws on the male reproductive rights.

  11. Ok I think Alex is trying to say like in evolution there was a point where homo erectus existed n when homo sapiens existed but if u look in between, there is no single point where u can say the parent was a homo erectus n offspring was a homo sapien. U just can't draw that line

  12. Maybe it's all wrong (i.e. at all stages), but we must at least admit that there are different levels. Also, an unborn child is not the same as someone who was already born into this life, even if they're unconscious or old or whatever. We must admit that no two wrongs are the same level. For example, we all agree that lying, stealing, and raping are wrong, but if you think that lying is the same as shoplifting, or that shoplifting is the same as fucking rape, you must be really dumb. Also, killing is wrong, right? But if your life is being threatened, or an armed robber is putting you and others in danger, then killing them is actually the right thing to do in that situation, as stopping to hesitate and feel bad about what you are about to do can easily get you and others killed. So even if something is generally wrong, it really does depend on the circumstance. And within lying and stealing itself there are obviously different levels. Are they all wrong? Sure, but they are not the same. Is it wrong to speed? Well, according to the law it is. But you certainly wouldn't call someone a "bad person" because of that, or even "wreckleace" for that matter, as not all speeding is done out of reckless behavior. You can speed out of being hyper focused on the road, which is quite the opposite of reckless. Of course these laws need to be in place to keep us all safe, since they can't exactly make separate laws for each individual person and circumstance and how they feel at that particular moment. Anyways, yeah, I think you get my points.

  13. See even if the arguments of theists were true and a time and date for the fetus to be considered alive were found it still doesn't remove the fact that another conscious person is, against her will is used to incubate that life till full term, pregnancy isn't a walk in the park, a woman's physiology and the state of her psychology changes due pregnancy, thus even if the fetus were alive from conception you absolutely cannot treat it as another moral issue where a life is taken and till you are in a position to physiologically carry a child, i don't think you even have a right to talk about it and alive or not the absolute right to choose should be the incubators.

  14. All three should be provided free right to abortion, whenever they want, and how so often they want. When they can not figure out how to set audio properly, how they are going to raise a child.

  15. You know what's funny? I find myself agreeing with Alex A LOT. From the moral dilemma in morality being subjective to this abortion argument.

    P.S. I'm Christian πŸ˜†

  16. There is nuance, but I don't think that the "option" should not be open for any woman to have choice. If they don't want to have a baby they can exercise some personal responsibility to not get pregnant. If the pregnancy would cause problems for the mother or there are abnormalities in the embryo then the doctor would determine that.

  17. I always say that I am Pro choice and pro life. The difference is when the choice begins. Choice is prior to conception. In the matter of rape there was no choice so she should have one within reason.

  18. Its a real life discussion, it effects real people therfore its not a philosophical discussion! Exactly! Philosophers should talk about stuff like does ET really exist or is this glas actually the meaning of life? Not real issues like religion or abortion!! πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

  19. Uh when does it become a burrito… a human is a human when it has has Its own human genetic code. The rest is just a period of growth.

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