Stephanie Gray | The Matt Fradd Show Ep. 9

g'day and welcome to the Matt Brad show I am super excited for what you are about to see I interviewed my dear friend and pro-life apologetics ninja yeah Stephanie gray about the topic of abortion and this was a really in-depth discussion we talked about the best arguments from the pro-choice side and why they fail we talked about the you know the instances of rape and incest and what the response is we talked about the life of the mother we talked about pro-abortion laws we talked about what Hillary Clinton had to say about the recent Georgia and Alabama laws we talked about whether pro-life people should be attacking you know abortion doctors those who perform abortions just FYI she says no but you'll get to hear why she says that we get into a whole range of issues that you're really going to enjoy so thank you so much for watching look I've got to say and this show all right like it costs money and it wouldn't have been possible if in part for these two sponsors all right so the first group I want to thank is covenant eyes you've heard me talk about carbonised before so please listen up you know covenant eyes is the best filtering and accountability software on the web that's just all I can say about it right like if you struggle with pornography if you're tired of seeing pornography maybe you're just tired of the temptation and you want to kind of do away with it you've got to get covenant eyes and I want to tell you how you can get a month for free so you can try it out okay type in Matt Fred okay that's one word Matt ma TT look it's right there well you can't see it right now but you will in a minute Matt Fred ma TTF Radd in the promo code that'll give you a month free and you can try the best filtering and accountabilities software on the web so you don't have to have the opportunity to look at the nog Rafi so it just it blocks the stuff but it also sends an accountability report to an accountability partner that changes it right I mean suppose you're someone out there right now and you struggle with pornography what if I said to you okay so you look at pornography from time to time what if someone was always watching you like what if your best friend was always in the room would you get to a point where you're like I can't help it anymore and just start looking at pornography they'd probably not that's kind of what these software does it sends a weekly daily you choose reminder to Anna trusted accountability partner so they see the stuff that you go to and the point isn't so that your friend can then shame you it's so that they can help you you need to get covenant eyes use the promo code Matt Fred you'll get a month free by using that promo code they know that we sent you so please use that promo code Matt Fred also if you have children okay you need to have Covenant eyes you see the stuff that pops up so are they you can be the accountability partner for your child again not so that you can make them feel bad if they go anywhere that they shouldn't but so that you can be there if they need you I beg you to get this go to covenant eyes comm covenant eyes comm we're gonna put a link below use the promo code matt fred and that'll get you a month for free try it out for a month if you don't like it cancel it you don't lose any money at all but you're not gonna want to cancel it and it's very reasonably priced we have it on all of our devices covenant eyes comm get it today and use the promo code Matt Fred the second group I want to thank is Exodus 19 Exodus 90 is an ascetical program for men who want to take their faith to the next level okay there's a lot of chaos going on in the church right now and I guess we have two fundamental options we can complain about it or we can do something about it and what we can do about it I think what the Christian response is is to pray and to fast so that we can grow in sanctity and for those who are in the leadership of the church or in places of authority who aren't doing as good a job as they should so ninety days you give up things you'd rather not give up you take on things you'd rather not take on like a cold shower for the whole 90 days okay now here's what's cool about it it's not something you do in isolation it's something you do as a community of brothers so go to exodus 90 join them I have known so many men who have done this after 90 days of these ascetical practices meeting weekly with men going through the book of Exodus for 90 days their lives have been fundamentally changed so let me ask you a question are you wanting to get more out of your Christian walk if you are go to Exodus 90 right now check them out and and I think you're gonna find is gonna be a very beneficial experience alright here is the episode that I just recorded with Stephanie gray enjoy because you're a morning person I'm a morning person whoa yes I was in the Philippines you're gonna find this funny do you speak Tagalog no I don't at all I served about 10,000 people well don't know if two days with Sara Swafford be fluent no she's I do yes yes matter at sea 2019 okay so Jason Everett is super great with international trips he's like just get me in I'll speak immediately and get me out right I'm like I need days to recover from the trauma and coffee who was that pun said it's a Filipino food I didn't know that all I had was the cold fish head for breakfast I was growl but um no but I was like I got this men do a Jason Everett I don't need to I'm just gonna for the kingdom and totally turns out I shouldn't have done that because he was really tough but anyway on the way back to the airport the lady said to me you are like a phone with many apps I'm like what and she said very exciting but dies quickly you are kind of like I'm very much like thank you up entirely it was very fun and really it's gently now because I wake up and I can crack out more work in those three hours of a day most people could do in an entire day like I am on fire yeah but about 1:00 p.m. I'm done I'm all about siestas yeah yeah yeah but that's because we're morning people yeah so we just like jump out of bed like a Tigger yeah you know and then my wife's different in the nighttime she's great in the morning she's brutal yeah I just don't get that so we weren't to get abortion and you've been talking about abortion for how long uh-huh well on one hand my whole life because I was a child activist but I have been speaking on it formally for pretty much 20 years and I think yeah I am that old Matt Fred how well do you think I yeah 37 oh do you actually think I'm mad are you actually no I think you're that like you think I look at ya is that offensive if we didn't totally derail this interview no actually it's not offensive because I'm 38 I'm gonna be 39 so you still what would is he to say well you think I said 20 you would have been offended because you knew I was lying well that's just because on a recent trip I was on this elderly gentleman was shocked at my age because he said you're less than 30 what but you know what he was an older gentleman probably didn't have his glasses on what would you have liked me to say no thirty-seven is good because it's younger than I am but still acknowledging that I am Who I am that's good that's good I'm 35 yeah yeah yeah well you know I was 37 yeah that's right we're well I was gonna say the same age but not quite so you've been speaking publicly about abortion for 20 years yeah I was 18 yeah 20 years I was 18 when I gave my first formal pro-life talk after hearing Scott Clues north and I am 38 so that's 20 years so when you say you were a child activist how did that happen and what did that look like so both my parents were super involved in the pro-life movement they went to rallies marches conferences I being born in 1980 80s and 90s were a time in the pro-life movement of Operation Rescue where moon pro-life activists in the United States and Canada in large groups would go to clinic doors chained themselves together and chained themselves to clinic doors always peaceful but basically shutting down the clinic's ability to function for several hours until the police would come and basically unlock them all so my parents were friends with those people so my parents you know what my parents didn't because my mom always said I can't imagine if the government would take you girls my sister and I take you girls from us and so I think my parents were afraid that if they got arrested would social services step in and think that they weren't you know so do you so they felt yeah they felt that they weren't in a place where they could do it but they were friends with those people so I grew up with you know the reality that my parents had friends who went to jail and I went to visit one of them in particular and so my mom volunteered at a pregnancy care center and she was going to hospital when her clients were giving birth so that's what I grew up in like so do you remember it when your parents weren't activists and I do not know no I mean I remember handwriting placards that we were going to take to the Vancouver bortion clinic and the slogan was I was about eight years old I was filling in the lines be a hero save a whale save a baby go to jail no no I don't know if I'm someone else the rosaries oh yeah yeah so that's that's where I come from that and and your folks Catholic yes okay yeah you've grown up in the church I have did you have a question wonder away have a more firm that kind of resolved to follow Christ good question I did not wander away but I did question and that was at a pivotal point pivotal point which happens for a lot of people when they leave high school and go into University and I moved away from home which I call kind of like my bubble I was raised in a small town I went to a good Catholic school my friends were all raised in families similar to my family and then I was kind of uprooted and I went to live in residence at the University of British Columbia and life was very different there and suddenly I was surrounded by people who didn't think as I thought who were not taught as I was taught and there was this whole other world going on where people were then challenging me why are you Catholic why do you have a pope why do you think contraception is wrong why do you think abortion is wrong and I remember calling one of my high school teachers calling him on the phone and saying Mr Blahnik I've gone to Catholic school for 13 years of my life why don't I have answers was he a faithful Catholic he was yeah and he said you need to read a book by Karl Keating called Catholicism versus fundamentalism so I read that Catholic apologetics book but so that sent me on a journey to understand the reasons behind the claims that I was making so it's not that I wasn't taught the truth or even taught the reasons but at my age or stage I couldn't really articulate the reasons back and so I went on a journey to be able to do that when I was 18 years old and then beyond just kind of apologetics from a Catholic perspective into just bioethics why is abortion wrong why is contraception wrong all of these things and when I started seeking out answers and explanations I found them and so that solidified the faith that I already had made it very strong and have kind of been going full steam ahead ever since yeah so the questions that you were looking into were most of objections raised from our evangelical brothers and sisters initially yes and then some of the moral questions too with abortion I was more equipped in being able to give explanations just because I'd been such an activist as a child I I have letters that I wrote to being a Canadian the the premier of British Columbia the Prime Minister of Canada when I was 12 13 and 14 years old my name is Stephanie gray and you need to stop abortion and you need to stop funding abortion and then I remember at the time the Prime Minister of Canada was Jean chrétien and I was not getting letters back from him I was getting them from his assistance which is typical if you write you know a member of government and so I remember being irate that the Prime Minister himself was not writing up to 13 year old Stephanie I know so I took those names of those assistants and I wrote them a letter and I said I don't want to hear from you I want to hear from the Prime Minister that's what I was that kind of child a write you back or did their assistance this passion has never left you you gave a talk when you're 18 why don't we do this why don't we begin by just sort of maybe steel Manning the abortion position the pro-choice position because it's always important isn't it that we try to understand where our ideological components are coming from to not dismiss people too quickly you know we might not be able to agree with someone's position but we can sympathize perhaps to some degree why they're at that position you know like yes people don't tend to hold to positions that they know are in direct defiance of the truth so before we kind of get into why abortions wrong right with this help sure let's do about like yeah why do people think it's right and buy steel man what I mean is you know there's the fallacy of straw Manning where you misrepresent your opponent's position and I know that the the people online pro-choice folks tend to do that in a great deal right so you can have like you hate women you're against women like yeah that's my argument I hate women yeah yeah yes so let's do that why are people for abortion what are they saying and how would you articulate it I think they would say it comes down to autonomy we are a culture obsessed with autonomy obsessed with choice and control and so people in support of abortion would argue that it's about my bodily autonomy my right to control my body and therefore if I want to have an abortion which is something that involves my body being laid down on the abortionist table then I should be allowed to access that and at the very least it shouldn't concern you right right as a pro-life activist you might disagree with my choice to do what I want with my body but that's that's not you have no right to speak to me right it's like it's like you know you may not like if I do drugs but I'm only impacting my body now of course we could argue that the choice that you make to take drugs does have a ripple effect on other people in the community and so on and so forth but they would look at it that way that this is a choice I'm making for my life now of course we know where the pro-life response is gonna go to that but that that's very much where the abortion supporter is focused okay and then see this is that this is the difficulty I think with some issues we could still man their positions all day because I'm very sympathetic to positions I am somewhat sympathetic to positions that are against say my my belief in certain things but I'm so unsympathetic to the pro-abortion position that it's really difficult for me to spend much time propping up their argument because I just feel like I disagree with it so strongly well I think it's yes you do disagree with it as I do so strongly but it also comes down to the fact that it's still not a very strong argument because we know that it is not just the woman's body that's involved when she has an abortion you know like increasingly I'm saying when I do debates in different lectures on the topic I will say to the audience when a woman takes a pregnancy test and she's not yet seen the results and but she doesn't want to be pregnant if the test comes negative yep will she go to an abortion clinic and they're always like no obviously not and then I say okay but if the test comes up positive and she doesn't want to be pregnant will she then consider going to the abortion clinic they say yes and they say I say okay well what is it that the positive test is telling her versus what the negative test is telling where the negative test is basically saying it's just your body don't worry it's just you but the moment she has a positive pregnancy test that's telling her it's no longer just her body there's another body there that's why she's thinking about going to the abortion clinic and action she would never take if she had the negative test so the very fact that she's now going to the abortion clinic is an admission there's another body present so what about that body's bodily autonomy what about that individuals choice what about that in so then suddenly it becomes the choice I could make to lay my body down on the abortionist table is a choice that if I'm pregnant is going to impact another body and if I believe in bodily rights and I need to protect the bodily rights of that pre born human being you know you are so good thanks Matt if only everyone said that I was when I lived in Canada you were there and you invited me to a debate you were doing on campus I think when people meet you like you're so beautifully free and like joking around and so I that's how I knew you and I'm like I come to this debate I forget what university was in Ottawa oh yeah and you said something like if you want to come and see how terrible the pro-choice argument yeah and you just ripped them and to shreds I mean you just decimate it I remember that I think they were bragging about how this guy was on the debate team and he was like number one and he had gone to Harvard or something growl he might be good at debating but if you're if you're trying to defend a position that's not true then exactly the it's gonna fall flat I love how you put that about the body bit like so if a woman takes a pregnancy test and she's not pregnant as you say her body was telling her something there was a reason she went out right I mean unless she just had sex and was wondering but right often she might experience something different going on within the body and she gets the pregnancy test right but that her body is reacting to another body like so all of the physiological reactions a woman has when she's pregnant is because of the presence of another body and so therefore if there's another body then how do we treat that other body how ought we treat that other body and that's actually an important distinction it's not what can I do the question is what should I do we can yes yes I can do almost anything yes the question is should I do that in a civil society in a society that believes all humans are equal in a society that believes in the fundamental human right to life should I take this course of action okay so the thing that's brought up immediately as soon as you start making sense right what's brought up is rape and incest right like someone might say and I'm not asking you this but someone might say like have you been raped do you have any idea the kind of trauma a woman goes through do you see how unloving and unsympathetic your syllogisms are to my pain you don't and you have no idea and so you really can't speak to this issue if I'm raped and you're forcing me that's the language right to give birth to this child that's immoral and then incest is also brought up as well how do we respond to these so there's there's two approaches that we need to take there's the approach of the heart and the approach of the head and I think we need to start with the former we need to acknowledge that anyone who's been victimized by sexual assault has been victimized that they've been traumatized that that is a brutal assault for which there really aren't words to capture how vile it is I have not been a victim of sexual assault but I have many friends who are and who have been and I have seen the lifelong trauma that that has brought to their lives so while I can't say I've personally experienced it I have observed through friendship the impact that that has had on people who have personally experienced that and I can acknowledge that that is a terrible thing and those people who have been hurt need our support they need our loved our compassion and counseling and so on and so forth the question we then need to ask moving from the heart to the head so there's an expression of sympathy and then this introduction of logic we'll abortion unwrapped a rape victim will it undo the trauma will it take away the evil that is happening no someone would say but it would make it less bad okay but if I'm raped terrible nothing can take that back if I'm raped and then forced to bring a child to term and I'm living with a child who's a perpetual reminder to me of the rape that I have suffered then then they'd say well this is worse than being raped and then being able to abort the fetus right so then if they focus on this being worse because that's the reminder then I ask if a woman has an abortion will she suddenly forget she's been raped she may not sudden she may not ever forget it she forget it yes but this is a very visual and and and in-your-face reminder in a way that if she didn't have the child it wouldn't be so so so we acknowledge that there's some reminder but we can't acknowledge that to the point that to think that if we took that particular reminder away that we'd be eliminating all other reminders that there wouldn't be things there the next point I would make is that I would ask the question is it fair to give the death penalty to the innocent child that's a consequence we don't even give to the rapist in America in the states where the death penalty you think you should do you think we should I I I'm siding with III I think it's atrocious just how easy people who commit these heinous crimes get off issue I think we need more serious consequences for the aggressors as someone who doesn't support the death penalty in general because I think there are ways to prevent criminals from being a threat to society without having to end their lives in a form of societal self-defense that they can um I think even in cases of murder I actually wouldn't support the death penalty if we could protect society by putting incarcerated the person you know for life or whatever the case may be but my point would be generally abortion supporters I find are not supporters of the death penalty so these are individuals that wouldn't give the death penalty to a rapist they wouldn't give the death penalty to a murderer so then we ask if you won't give the death penalty to guilty people why would you ever consider giving the death penalty to an innocent person that in the circumstance of rape the guilty party is not the preborn child the guilty party is not the woman the guilty party is the rapist so we're now talking with the act of abortion about giving a consequence a punishment to the innocent party that we're not even giving to the guilty party and even if we were giving that to the guilty party I think we should all agree that no innocent person should ever paid the price of a crime that they themselves have not committed so I would make the point that abortion is not gonna unwrap a rape victim it is not going to take away the memories that she's been traumatized and then most foundationally we in an in a society that supports human rights may not give punishment for a crime that the individual being punished has actually not committed that they're not guilty of and so you know it's kind of like if a Bourdon child looks like their father and the father commits a crime in a small town and you know the child grows up and looks like the father well the the locals in the town who were traumatized by that father's crime may not justifiably attack this child of the criminal because he is a reminder of what his father did because he looks like his father and people you know get memories of what evil had occurred previously that we don't punish innocent people for the crimes of guilty people now the abortion supporter will come back and say well a fetus isn't a person yet I want to hone in on this and because this is a question that's gonna come up a lot lately right okay so you know if you say I'm willing to grant that this is a human life because it has human parents right that's a far cry from saying it's a person and so now we need to define terms so yeah yeah I'd love you to spend some time on that sure so then I will ask the abortion supporter what is a person how do you define a person and s you want some answers so the typical answer you get is more along the lines of what our singer yeah the Peter singer who is a professor at Princeton University kind of would argue that a person is someone who's rational conscious or self-aware and so the abortion supporter will say even if biologically you're human the embryo at say in in in the first few weeks of pregnancy even the fetus you know in the first trimester and so forth they will say well that entity is not rational conscious or self-aware in that moment and therefore even if biologically human is not a person so I wouldn't say okay well if our definition of a person in therefore what gives you the right to life and what stops me from being able to kill you definition of a person is the rational rational conscious or self aware right now what about when you're having surgery and you're under anaesthetic in that moment you're not rational conscious or self-aware if surgery is happening and I look at you and I say can I kill you you're not going to respond back and say no please don't because you're under anaesthetic if you're sleeping and I whisper while you're sleeping Matt may I kill you you're not gonna say no please don't kill me because you're not rational conscious and self aware at that moment I took the way you are right now and we still acknowledge you're a person because we would say by virtue of being human you have the inherent capacity built into your human nature to be rational conscious or self-aware but you can't currently express that due to your circumstances of sleeping or being under anaesthetic in the same way by virtue of being human the embryo or fetus of human parents has within his or her nature the capacity to be rational conscious or self-aware but cannot currently express that because of her age so when you're sleeping you can't express it because of your circumstances and that can change quickly in the embryos case the embryo may not express it because of the embryos age which will change as the embryo gets older but our right to life ought to be grounded in our existence not in how old we are and the embryo cannot act on certain abilities because of the embryos age and human rights aren't based on age they're based on existence as a member of the human family well put I think someone might come back they would say but isn't there something in the fact that an embryo has never been conscious aware or rational so when I'm conscious aware and rational I desire to live when I sleep I don't want to be dead but I sleep I have dreams and aspirations the the embryo has never been these things yes and so it would seem less evil no one would say it seems to let it less able to do that then so then I would ask the individual why is that relevant so the fact that you have experienced being rational conscious and self-aware right now and then you might lose that ability to currently act on that if you're under anesthetic if you're sleeping and then you're going to come out of those situations and act again the fact that you've previously had this experience why does that matter in contrast to the embryo who has not yet had that experience why is that relevant I would ask the abortion supporter to articulate why I think that matter I think for me I would just say yeah I'm definitely in a trap and I don't know how to respond in a way that would do justice to my pro-abortion position here but I think it would something like it may not say anything to whether or not I or you or someone honest it has dignity but it does seem like I I have a desire to live and it would seem wrong for you to deprive me of life because I have that desire and embryo has never had it and so to deprive them of life is you're not kind of they have they have no idea that it's happening so they don't like oh yeah that is happening on anesthesia correct or let's let's go a little further ahead but much further back from where you and I are let's take a late-term fetus where most people even who support abortion would object to the abortion of that preborn child no eight months pregnant most people are not going to support abortion that late in pregnancy or let's just take a newborn baby whether it's the eight-month fetus or a newborn child those two individuals are not rational consciousness self-aware to the level that we are and same thing if I am cradling a newborn baby and I whisper in the child's ear may I kill you that baby has no ability to comprehend or respond yes you could with with the help of medicine kill that child in a way that wouldn't be painful for that child presumably oh absolutely right we could send a child under anaesthetic and then end the child's life it was an atrocious thing exactly so I would say the point is that it is wrong to kill a human not because the human feels pain at the time of killing not because the human is aware at the time of killing but because the individual being killed is a human and so whether the preborn child feels pain or not is aware or not can respond or not isn't relevant what's relevant is is this child a member of the human family and that's why with abortion supporters I like to use reference reference to the United Nations which is often perceived as being a pro-abortion institution but if you look at their foundational documents they are profoundly pro-life the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says all members of the human family have the right to life and then they say an article 6 everyone ought to be recognized everywhere as a person before the law well who's everyone well the preamble talks about all members of the human family so since the preborn child is a member of the human family by virtue of having human parents than article 6 applies to them as much as it applies to you and me that by members by being members of the human family they ought to be recognized as persons everywhere before the law interestingly the UN also has adopted a document called the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights so this document goes through a whole bunch of stuff it's very lengthy but there's one part of the document that references countries in which the death penalty is legal and they say in countries where the death penalty is legal it may never be done on a pregnant woman Wow I know that changes exactly but to make that change would ruffle feathers against again especially amongst people who don't support the death penalty or even if they do wouldn't support it being given to innocent people if a if you could have two women yeah in the in the same country who have committed crimes that according to that country's law are worthy of the death penalty one woman is pregnant one woman is not both of them are guilty if only one of the two under that law is going to be killed because she's not pregnant since both are guilty that's an admission that within the body of the pregnant woman is an innocent party and we don't kill innocent people for crimes that they haven't committed so interestingly not only is it the existence of a preborn child that saves some mothers from being killed by the death penalty but the point is it's an acknowledgment that in her body is an innocent party and so we don't kill innocent people for crimes they haven't committed hmm very well put to talk to us about this violin argument this bottle your autonomy argue yeah maybe tell us a bit of the background behind this argument perhaps state it as well as you can sure and then yes well I I love is you're you know making the point about doing I love taking the pro-abortion argument at its strongest yes and even then showing how weak it is even if it's stronger compared to other ones so I think we should you know so steel Manning is kind of the idea well yeah will you make someone's argument as strong as possible this is of course what Aquinas doesn't say so I think we should use a new term like Aquinas saying I'm trying to Aquinas that argument format for me okay sure so moving beyond what we've just looked at which is the idea that abortion supporters will say the embryo isn't a person what is happening as some abortion supporters are saying yeah the embryo is a person the embryo is equal to you and me the embryo has the same right to life that you or I have but just for a second because you so often do not get that admission from pro-abortion folks at least those who haven't thought about it a great deal correct it's more on the university campuses the philosophers they've kind of moved in this direction and it's an argument that on review to say was first proposed by Judith Jarvis Thompson but was you could say made famous by an abortion supporter by the name of Judith Jarvis Thompson in nineteen I believe it was 1970s wrote a paper called unplugging the violinist or something along those lines and and she was making the point that someone can be considered equal to another but not have the right to another's body and so the analogy she came up with to demonstrate that point was to say imagine you wake up one morning and you are not at home you're in a hospital you don't know how you got there and you try to roll over in the bed you're in and you see there's another human in the bed with you and you're attached to them she said imagine how a doctor comes into the hospital room and says I'm terribly sorry for the situation you find yourself in but last night you were kidnapped you were kidnapped by the Society for music lovers because you see this society knew of a world-famous violinist that they loved and this world-famous violinist was gonna die and the Society for music lovers didn't want that to happen they wanted to preserve his life and they realized that there was only one person in the entire world who had the right body type who if connected to the violinist could keep the violinist alive and so they discovered that person was you and they kidnapped you and here you are this is a world-famous violinist he can entertain you while you're in bed and and so she says now imagine the doctor says to you don't worry you're not in this situation forever it's just for nine months and so this woman is clearly a philosophy her point was to say even though the violinist is a human person as the same has the same thing same right to life is equal to you this living human person does not have a right to use your body without your consent and so she argues just as you can reach around and unplug the violinist so to at a pregnant woman be allowed to unplug so to speak her fetus who's a living human person because the living human person does not have the right to you yeah that's you've put that very well thank you it feels but I think I would have done Judith Jarvis Thomson proud yes good good okay and so is this an argument you ever heard and were rattled by yes oh yeah tell us about that yes well I remember being rad so I when I first heard the argument I believe it was in a philosophy class at UBC and that argument was in my textbook and there was in fairness not so fair but in fairness there was a pro-life essay in the textbook too but it was not very good at all and I remember reading it being like I need to submit a better essay for this textbook yes so that's when I first encountered the argument so then I went to my mentor Scott close the door if the the pro-life speaker who who really inspired me to do pro-life work full-time and he helped me think through the the argument he dealt with it before and and so so then the response is to say well several things first of all I that there is a difference between the pregnancy in that when a woman is pregnant she in the vast majority of cases has consented to the act of sex which brought about to the pregnancy so in the case of the violinist you were kidnapped and plugged into this person without your consent but for the vast majority of circumstances where women are pregnant they've consented to the act of sex and since pregnancy is a possible consequence they have to accept that kind of like if you play baseball with your child in the street and your son hits the ball and it goes through your neighbor's window you can't say to your neighbor you know I can sent it to play baseball but I didn't consent to the ball going through your window so I'm not going to pay for your window to be fixed if your neighbor took you to small claims court he would be able to argue that by virtue of playing baseball in an area where there was glass there was there was an inherent risk associated with that of breaking someone's window and by entering into the game you have to embrace the consequence and therefore pay to fix the window now the abortion supporter who's hearing all of this well instantly say okay fair enough that cord caused us to say well the vast majority of abortions wouldn't be allowed because the woman consented to the sex she has to accept the pregnancy but what if she hasn't consented okay but would they jump there so quickly would they not try and hold that ground longer than that with you know not in my experience but do you want to try I'm not sure if I would I suppose you know in our modern mind we have really separated sexes and the ends of sex right so sex is no longer something that I do for the good of me and my beloved necessarily or if it is that it's something totally distinct from having a child isn't it well this is true there is that divorce of pregnancy from sex so that people will say that but I was a dissenting yeah yeah I wasn't even if it's in tied in to the biology of it I don't want that so in fact that might even argue I used birth control so I was actively trying to avoid that consequence therefore I'm not responsible but I can see how your baseball analogy would refute that – I mean yeah or driving fast on the highway right all these sorts of things have these inherent risks regardless of the precautions I take as I drive or if I play or even if you think about what we do when it comes to what's the word I'm losing it not thinking about but when when you have to pay child support right so imagine you have a couple have sex I they break up woman finds out she's pregnant hmm goes something the husband was denied even the husband right they're not married so let's say he doesn't want the child and let's say that she doesn't tell him that she's pregnant they broke up but she decides that she wants to carry through with the pregnancy when the baby's born she realizes hey I need some financial help yeah so she goes they do paternity tests he finds out he is indeed the biological father and she says you owe me child support now imagine if he came back and said hey I can send it to the sex but I sure didn't consent to this pregnancy I'm not paying for child support yet most women would want to slap him yes and when if she takes him to court over this matter the court will rule in her favor that by virtue of engaging in the act of sex and creating this human being that he has to accept the consequences which is the existence of a human being who's vulnerable and needy and requires financial provision and therefore he has a duty to pay child support so if we expect that of the men shouldn't we expect that of the women yes so that's kind of one angle we could come from another angle that we could come from is to say parents have a responsibility to their offspring that we don't have to strangers so the nature of me in bed for example with the violinist is I don't know this person so it's nice of me to use my body to help them you could choose to do that crap you know I say if you don't look at it correct there's no obligation there's no moral duty to do that and that is the difference we could say when it comes to pregnancies it's a parent-child relationship which is then where we can deal with those exceptions where someone hasn't consented in the case of sexual assault and nonetheless gets pregnant while they haven't consented to the act that brought about the pregnancy by virtue of being the parent of the child biologically the rape victim is the mother of the offspring parents have a responsibility to care for their offspring in a way they don't have a responsibility for strangers so if a child is starving in your city it's nice of you to go to a homeless shelter and and and work to provide food but if you don't volunteer at a homeless shelter to help starving children or adults you're you're not going to be found guilty of breaking a law by refusing to serve the homeless but if your child in your home is starving and you're refusing to feed your child you will be found legally and morally responsible for it neglect okay so is this because we've dealt with thee you've consented to this in some sense now it seems like we're moving over to the the pro-abortion in this person in response to you the pro-choice however they will find themselves response to you and says okay I get it in the vast majority of cases there's consent but you know this woman was abducted this was a great choice so it said we've already moved in yes we did you see but parents have responsibilities to their offspring we don't have to strange which sounds mean doesn't it a little bit not not generally speaking I get that we have it's really cruel you expect me to feed my children right but to say that okay you've been raped so it's your responsibility it you feel that even though like I get it logically that one has responsibility but it's like I didn't ask for this I was brutally assaulted and now you are telling me that I am obligated like who the hell are you to say that well I think it's to say that we have a duty to help the vulnerable what makes rape wrong it's that you have a vulnerable party who is attacked by a stronger party okay what makes abortion wrong so have a vulnerable party that is attacked by a stronger party that is in no way intended to minimize the gravity or the trauma of a sexual assault it's to simply make the point that when injustice happens when terrible things happen it doesn't give the victims license to do just anything in response I would argue that a victim of sexual assault who becomes pregnant doesn't have to raise the child the question is in a certain window of time where no one else can care for the child is there a responsibility to meet the basic needs of the child so again by way of analogy we could imagine you know let's say that you're kidnapped and you're kidnapped alongside a newborn baby who's been kidnapped and you find yourself you've been you know you were knocked out and then you wake up in a cabin which is locked there's no way of getting out it's like boarded up and you're in the middle of nowhere and you discovered that you're kidnapped with with a child who's of no relation to you and in this cabin interestingly there is formula there's water and there are bottles there is a capacity no there's no great kind of heroic virtue that's realized for me to support this child right it's right there and I are you related to this child no but this is the basic needs of the child so do you have a duty even though you've been a victim of kidnapping to meet the basic needs of the child in your presence who's incapable of meeting those needs and when you're freed hopefully from this situation you don't have to go on and raise the child yes now so the abortion supporter might then say well then if you have to help the child in the cabin in the woods where you're both kidnapped shouldn't you have to help the violinist because you're not related to the child and you're not related to the violinist and so then it comes down to our basic or ordinary needs versus extraordinary needs in the case of the violinist needing to be plugged into my body so to unpack that a little more I once debated a philosophy professor where I found myself temporarily stumped where he brought up the violinist argument but he put a variation on it I was about to do something similar so it was the same thing so he made a variation of the argument and I remember thinking I'm not fully prepared because I know it in this form and so he started the debate by saying to the audience I'm gonna agree for the sake of discussion that the embryo is a human person with the same right to life as all of us what abortion is justified in the following manner he said imagine this analogy he said imagine that you are a parent and you have a born child and you love your child your child suddenly gets very sick because your child has kidney disease yep and is going to die unless your child gets a kidney transplant now he said imagine that you were the only person in the world with the right body type so as to be able to donate one of your kidneys in doing so save your child's life no one else has the capacity to be able to do this he said would it be nice of you the parent to give your kidney one of your kidneys to your child yes it would be nice would it save your child's life yes he said it would would it kill you know you've got to but then he said should the law force a pyramid to give their kidney to their child question yeah and he said no and even from a cow the perspective we know when it comes to organ donation that there isn't a moral obligation to donate ones organs it can be an act of generosity and the right circumstances but no moral duty and so he said just as a parent should not have a legal duty to give their born child their kidney a parent in the case of the mother should not have a legal duty to give her preborn child her uterus so I'm sitting there mat in front of 200 students dying inside totally panicked and you know having an acting background I thought I'm gonna look calm cool and collected so I'm fake note right like I like I had this passion responsibly and being a person of faith I immediately started praying like come Holy Spirit like Lord Jesus like what do I say and I actually I think I've only experienced this once in my life tangibly sensed God speak to me very clearly not audibly but in a sentence that I can repeat exactly as he said it he called me by name he said Stephanie this is the Holy Spirit yeah okay Stephanie I made the uterus for a different purpose now that's all God gave me I was like okay yeah yeah so I was like you know and then literally as my opponent was wrapping up his opening remarks where I then had to get up with a response it was the moment of Epiphany the scales fell from my eyes I had like this light bulb go off and I thought I've got it so I got up in front of everyone and I said professor Sneden makes a very compelling remark very strong argument until I said we ask ourselves a question and the question we have to ask ourselves is this what is the nature and purpose of the kidney versus the nature and purpose of the uterus because when we ask and answer that question we come to see why a parent should not be legally obligated to give one but actually should be legally obligated to give the other and so I said the kidney exists in my body for my body I said the uterus is very different well in Jesus I said the uterus exists in my body every single month getting ready for someone else's body every single month my uterine lining is thickening in great expectation for the implantation of the next generation and I said therefore you could say the uterus is unique from all the other body parts in that it exists more for my offspring then for me and they can therefore claim a right to that in a way the preborn are born couldn't claim a right to I get your kidney I get this I get that so the good news is it was reported back to me the professor told his class a couple days later that he was up all night trying to be really wise I know pretty seasonable so all that to say that variation really helped me boil it down to a couple things it's the parent-child relationship this is back to the violinist oh yeah violin is on and then his variation I mean even once someone said to me you know it's nice of me to donate my blood but I have no legal duty to donate my blood that's true but my Bloods in my body for my body the uterus is in my body for my offsprings body so therefore not only is this there a parental responsibility you're the parent this is your child there is a parental responsibility to meet the basic needs of one's offspring and so it's for a child to be taken to Disneyland but there's no it if that's an extraordinary thing it's not an ordinary thing but food clothing shelter that's ordinary care yes and so in the case of pregnancy maintaining a pregnancy allowing the uterus to be used for the very nature of the uterus exists for is the food clothing and shelter so to speak for the preborn child that's needed at that stage of one's offspring what offsprings life in the way born child's who is an offspring Orca needs that um and then so so I would argue that because the parent-child relationship because the nature of the uterus because it's basic care you have to care for the child when it comes to the violinist that's above and beyond the call of duty here's a course extraordinary versus the child in the cabin that's feeding a child who's not related to you is ordinary care and then the added element is if you're the parent even more so here's a twist on the violinist argument that just time to yeah suppose the violinist turns out to be the son you gave away at birth and you're now hooked up to your thirty year old son oh no any whoa mad good question am I now morally obligated to spend nine months hooked up to this stranger so I would say you're not even if you find out that you are the parent of the child because being plugged into a born person is not the basic care humans need to grow through the stages of human development that that's extraordinary array that someone would look upon the woman who disconnects herself from the violinist who turns out to be their son a lot more judgment kind of horror how could you do that to your son maybe legally you weren't obligated but it's your son Orion I think I would do would strengthen the pro-life argument that I think you you could say because it horrifies there is but at the same time there isn't a duty for you to give one of your kidneys to one of your yeah Lima Avila or whoever because you might have to be factoring in other things you might have to be factoring in that if you give one of your kidney stop will that put your health in jeopardy and your ability to care for your family so when it comes to extraordinary or heroic acts we may choose them but there isn't a moral or legal duty to choose these things and so even though that's you're in this hypothetical that's your born child in that case the giving of your kidney or being plugged into your kidney of course this is a made-up scenario because that doesn't even exist but the point is if there isn't the same duty as the basic care required for regular human growth and development and so if I wake up one day to find myself attached to my baby you would say I have that obligation right you have an obligation to provide the basic care so if were your child and again that's not basic so easy I could choose for myself and have the child die and that not be enough if the child died the question we wanted the child died from did you kill them because is it within the nature of our species to need to be plugged into something some someone yeah it is for the first nine months of pregnancy it actually is within our nature and so there's nowhere else for the child to be that's the basic care required of a child and you could argue that even after birth there's a little bit of that when it comes to breastfeeding yeah so there is some degree of attachment but then it comes down to is this basic care required for the natural normal human growth and development within our species versus something extraordinary stopping you from dying from kidney disease or something else in that case in the case the preborn child the child is just living in the case of the scenario of the child who's got kidney disease or whatever the case may be the child is dying from some pathology which has presented itself and the question is how far do we have to go in response to the pathology but we're not talking about that with pregnancy pregnancy is in pathology the child's need for food clothing and shelter is what actually any species really needs for growth and development so we're moving in here to kind of the health of the mother because I find that a lot of Christians right they'll say I'm against abortion and they may even say well I'm even against abortion in the cases of rape and incest but if the mother's life is in jeopardy then they'll say abortion is okay what where do we stand on that I think you respond to that so we need to begin with my saying well let's even use a term that you used which I would say to the person in conversation which is if the mother's life is in danger so I would say what is a mother what makes a woman a mother I am a woman but I'm not a mother now we could argue I'm a spiritual mother but the point is I'm not a biological mother I'm a woman who saw a mother so what distinguishes women in general yes from mothers specifically they have they have offspring that they have offspring so therefore we know now to be a mother involves the presence of another and it involves a very special relationship one of nurture and care for the more vulnerable party so starting with that then I would say okay in this scenario you've described this is cause for concern we ought to respond the question is how hot we respond and in terms of figuring out our how the beginning place has to be two lives are involved the mother and the child yes and we have two valuable with lives equally we recognize both our unrepeatable and irreplaceable both are willed and loved in the eyes of God and the mother isn't more important the child then the child the child is not more important than the mother they're both equal but we recognize because one party is more vulnerable the younger preborn child that that child is actually dependent on the mother equal to but dependent on the mother so if we want to preserve the child's life for a good portion of the pregnancy we actually need to preserve the mother's life so that would be the general information I would propose at the beginning and then I would say in order to determine how we ought to respond we can acknowledge that there are some paths we could take that are immoral and although those aren't open to us it doesn't mean that there aren't other paths we could take that would be moral so for example imagine you're driving home and there's a big orange sign up that says road closed detour ahead ok and then you follow these arrows that take you all around a neighborhood you normally don't go through to ultimately get home do you still get home yes yes but not the way you normally take that option wasn't open to you you still reached your final destination but you went around or a longer path so in the same way I would say when the woman's life is in danger we want to reach that and goal of saving her life but road close detour ahead the one path that is not open to us is the path that would involve directly and intentionally coding the child's life because it's wrong to directly and intentionally end the life of an innocent you see this is this is why I so appreciate your consistency here because it's very difficult for me to listen to politicians who want to say that they're pro-life and then they throw out these exceptions yes because the question is is it ever justifiable for a big strong person to kill a little weak person it's a little innocent person that's the question and if it's not then you just cannot you've got you can't assistant correct I get from a legislative point of view that you might have to kind of I don't know play that game a little bit so you moved your arguments more palatable to people but you just have to be consistent so you can never directly kill an innocent human being correct then that road is closed so tell me what it goes so then we go around the bend and we say okay well first of all what is the situation and how do we best respond to the pathologizing give us a ecology so let me give you two scenarios that I think help make the the pro-life position clear one would be chorioamnionitis which I'll explain in a moment the other one would be a tubal pregnancy and that's gonna happen in the first trimester chorioamnionitis can happen later in pregnancy so let's let's start there with chorioamnionitis so that's infected membranes that's a severe infection that results in the case of a pregnant woman and if the infection remains in her body she will die and if she dies the baby dies so in the case of chorioamnionitis what you need to do is get the infected membranes out of her body knees get the infection out of her body the way to do that is to induce labor remove the infection this is where in philosophy of course you would have covered this a lot the principle of double effect comes into play which says you may never do evil to bring about a good you can only do good or neutral actions acknowledging that when you do good or neutral actions you can have effects you can have a good effect and you can have a bad effect but the effects are different from the action itself which can't be bad or can't be evil the the action itself has to be good or neutral so in the case of inducing labor in the presence of a serious infection that threatens to people's lives the action is good you're removing an infection the good effect is the mum does not die because the infection is out of her body the bad effect is if it is prior to viability prior to our ability to have technology that would keep the child alive out of the womb such as an incubator if it's prior to that and viability I mean people generally will say 24 weeks is is where a child can survive outside the womb but there have been cases where babies have survived at 21 22 23 weeks but let's say we're at 18 weeks and we don't have time to wait because of the rapidly progressing infection that the induction of Labor is not a bad action to kill the child it's a good action to remove the infection but in inducing labor the baby's gonna come to the babies too young to survive in an incubator the child dies not because we've directly killed the child but we've responded to the presence of a pathology which if left alone would have resulted in the demise no child enough the mother so this is what we're talking about for those at home is not an abortion correct it's it's a ethical medical response to the presence of a pathology pregnancy is not a pathology a human being is not a pathology but an infection can be a pathology cancer is a pathology so let's take before we go into a tube appraises let's say you have cancer and let's say a woman is um 23 weeks and they find out she has cancer in her body and the doctors say we need to give you chemotherapy in that case if waiting one more week would not threaten her life and we can say let's wait until the 24 week mark then we'll induce labor to put the baby in an incubator and then we're gonna give you all the cancer treatment that you need so as to not harm the child then that's the best of both worlds we're now working to preserve the child's life with the technology we have as well as responding to the pathology within ER now let's say she's maybe 15 weeks and the doctors say we don't have time to nine weeks it's life or death we have to administer chemo and this could hurt your child this could kill your child in that situation it would be ethical to administer chemo if the mother so chose because we're not giving chemo to kill the child or hurt the child we're killing we're giving chemo to kill the cancer which is in the woman's body and it's possible actually there have been cases where pregnant women have had chemo and it's actually not negatively harmed at the child but hop rating thing to have to go through right absolutely yeah absolutely no but let's take it to the extreme and say that it would harm the child even that if you cannot wait could be justified now two things one you could have a situation where you could wait a week or two and then you end up being able to preserve both lives alternatively you could have a situation where a woman in an act of heroism says if I can be alive long enough to carry this child to term but I'm really big creating a situation where the cancer is just gonna take over me in an act of heroism she may choose to do that and there's a woman back in in Canada where I live who found herself in that situation she had about two year old son was pregnant and the doctor said look we need to do chemo we need to intervene but you know your pregnancy will and the child will die and she looked at her two-year-old son and she said I would die for him my wife did this I always bring me to tears when Liam was born it was an emergency section and the drugs hadn't even kicked in no it was drastic and I remember her very much saying and I forget exactly how she said it but it was all about Liam it was all about saving Liam and it was almost like her life was and whatever it's fine if I don't live that's okay save him and I'm like I'm not okay right of course you're torn and yeah of course that's a heroic thing yes right right and that's where we see so so but the point is that either way whether you choose that active heroes of whether we can actually wait until viability or whether we don't have the technology to save the child the point is we're not acting to directly and intentionally end the life of an innocent human being we're acknowledging there's the presence of two parties and we're going to do our darndest to save both we may not succeed so now let me give a concrete case where we will not succeed and that's a tubal pregnancy so so people think pregnancy happens in the womb it doesn't the beginning of pregnancy happens in the fallopian tube so the sperm make its way through the uterus into the fallopian tube where the woman's egg is hanging out yeah fertilization happens in the fallopian tube once fertilization happens you have your genetically distinct new human being different from the mother and father growing as the one celled embryo and then two cells four cells eight doubling and so forth in a normal healthy functioning pregnancy within about a week that embryo will move through the little hairs through the uterus sorry through the uterine tubes the fallopian tubes will be swept through the tubes into the uterus implant and grow for nine months in the case of a tubal pregnancy the preborn child does not make it into the uterus for whatever reason the child gets lodged in the fallopian tube and that can happen for a number of reasons she might have scar tissue from previous surgery she might have scar tissue or problems internally because of an STI she might have tubal structure or function problems regardless there's some pathology that has prevented the embryo from going into the uterus and the embryo stays in the tube but the embryo is gonna keep growing and developing yeah and do at the normal stages of pregnancy with the embryo would do in the uterus so as the embryo begins to get to the stage of implantation where the embryo is going to burrow into the what would be the wall of the uterus and implant and grow for nine months the embryo starts doing that in the tube well the tube is not designed for that and so as the embryo is burrowing in and and implanting and growing that tubes gonna expand and it will expand so much that if left alone will burst and if that tube bursts the mother can die and the baby is obviously going to die so in that situation there are a number of things that you can do and the one that I tell people that I would do because sometimes when you say well this is what you should do people say if you were in that situation would you do it and I say yes I would I would have what's called a cell ping ejected me done it's not an abortion self-injure stop injecting me and so that is a procedure where the section of fallopian tube that the child is in that's expanding and growing and basically is now pathological that section of the fallopian tube is cut out and removed if we could then take that embryo in – BRR without the tube and implant the embryo somewhere we would do that we lack the technology to be able to do that so principle of double effect unfortunately the child dies because we cannot save the child the mother lives because that section of fallopian tube which is her body which is designed for the transport of the child but not the implantation of the child which if left alone would have resulted in the demise of the child and her that section of her – of her body of the tube that part of her body was removed therefore she's not going to die now some abortion supporters will say wait if the embryo over here is dead because you did a self inject me where the embryo is dead because you directly targeted the embryo you aboard at the end but you tried to kill no time result exactly and so that's where we say okay this is where we need to look at a situation and analyze it not just from the end result but from the means how did you get there action and intention what is my intention first of all and what is the very action that I'm committing so in the case of an abortion the very action is targeting the baby's body and the intention with abortion is never to save the child it's always to bring about the demise of the child in the case of a self injecting me the action is targeting the tube the intention is to try to save both lives but we lack the technology to do so so the way to round this out by way of an analogy that I'll provide to people to make it crystal clear as I'll say imagine two people are drowning actually I was about to bring this up do you want – well I was what's your analogy well no I wish I haven't thought about this a great deal but I you know suppose I'm out on the lake and we're canoeing and my wife and son are another can do and it capsizes and they're both struggling and we're in the middle of the lake and I want to save them both desperately yeah but suppose I lack the strength to save both of them then I have two options I either save one of them yeah don't save either or try to save both unsuccessfully right and so it would seem that the best thing to do in that situation would be to successfully save one right absolutely you try disable and and and the right thing is to never directly and intentionally kill once so you know let's say the except yeah holding Liam under right well you're going Cameron exactly and so the point is that let's say they're at far apart and you swim to the closest one let's say it's Cameron and you've got her now on your back and you're swimming towards Liam if you get to him his heads above water you push his head down there's a problem there you've just killed him but if just before you reach him his head goes underwater and you can't find him yeah then you've been unable to save him now in both scenarios he's dead either way but in one case you directly killed him in the other case you couldn't save him so that's why when the woman's life is in danger you do a self inject to me versus doing an abortion yeah the end result is the dead baby in either case but the means are so profoundly different in one case we did not have what was needed to preserve the child's life in the other case by way of doing an abortion that would be directly and intentionally acting on the child's body to bring about the child's death so that's always wrong fantastic so I just it's so it's so interesting when all this comes up politically and people talk about well this law in that law and we need these exceptions for the woman's life being in danger I always want to say can we just slow down and talk this through like we don't need these exceptions and saying that we have a pro-life law that never permits abortion is not saying line up all these women for death because that's what will happen no we I've just given three examples cancer chorioamnionitis tubal pregnancy where we can intervene and save the mother and and do our best to try to save the baby to I guess the problem is this is such an emotional thing for many people yeah and what you've just laid out is a very intelligent philosophical sort of you know and what we get is sound bites yes you know so that must be so frustrating for you as someone who's studied this for so long I want to give you a yeah a quote from Hillary Clinton oh boy this should be fed this this came out after the Alabama Lawson the Georgia heartbeat law yes she tweeted this out and I wanna get your response the abortion bans in Alabama Georgia Ohio Kentucky and Mississippi are appalling attacks on women's lives and fundamental freedoms women's rights are human rights we will not go back what what say you Hillary yes hello Hillary how are you my my first response would be to say if you believe in women's rights when do those rights begin Oh what about the woman in the womb what about the female fetus who's being targeted for sex selective abortion in some communities in some countries around the world so if we believe in women's rights then those rights begin when you have a female and a female begins at the moment of sperm egg fusion the moment of fertilization roughly 50% of the time unless unless a male child is conceived so therefore what about the rights of women in the womb and and when she speaks about women's rights again it comes down to when a pregnant woman is pregnant is it just her or do we now have not just a woman but a mother and that's the important thing is a woman or a mother and and that's the key is what do we say you know this all boils down to one question what is the unborn well this is funny you should say that because yes it does and I've spent my career saying it comes down to the question of when does life begin and and I did a debate a year ago at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville Virginia the University of Virginia law school and I changed my strategy and I said the question I want to ask us today is this what does civil societies expect of parents and when does Parenthood begin so we can ask the question when does life begin but let's actually talk about what is Parenthood begin because if you look at news headlines about parents who starve kill torture their children whether you support abortion or you oppose abortion there's this unified horror at these types of stories like there was that family I think in California that husband a wife it recently came out in the news they had like eight children in their homes that were in cages it was a always a nightmare stories horrifying and even people who support abortion would agree that's wrong why well it's not just for it is wrong because innocents were harmed but it's not just wrong because innocence we're harmed it's wrong because the innocents were harmed by their parents and there is a sense we all have that parents have a ability to care for not harm their children so more and more I'm trying to frame the abortion debate as a question surrounding what does civil societies expect of parents and when does Parenthood begin and you become a mother the moment a preborn child comes into existence you become a father the moment of preborn child comes into existence so you know if you're going to a baby shower you know people and the babies not yet born people will often get these cards congratulations mother-to-be and i want to say i am a mother to be yes to be and people you're pregnant no the only reason I'm a mother to be is because I'm not pregnant never happy I am a mother to be because I'm not yet a mother but if you're pregnant you are not a mother to be you are a mother and so it should be congratulations mother so then it comes down to what do we expect of mothers and so that's what I would ask of Hilary what do we expect of mothers in to some extent she should be able to answer that in a positive and affirming way because she is a mother and she's been a mother to Chelsea and she's now a grandmother to Chelsea's child or children whatever the case is and so we know it intuitively and what we want to do is tap into the intuitions people have and make the connection for them in the case of the preborn child what do you say to people who say we don't know when life begins and and is it it's just a religious claim to say that there's some kind of soul thing that happens and that's just a religious idea right right when when people say they don't know when life begins I then ask question back and say out of curiosity when do you ban abortion and wherever they ban abortion I would say well isn't that when you think life begins so if they ban abortion it's six months pregnancy or at birth then they must be acknowledging life begins there otherwise they wouldn't ban abortion there so then you make that point to show them you're claiming you don't know when life begins but you are asserting you do yours you just because you just drew a line but then here's the question on what basis do you have for life beginning at six months or life beginning at birth even if you look at the number six months mmm that label for us to get there six months implies that we think something significant happened six months ago that causes to count passage of time that caused us to look at the clock ticking oh we got to six months well if we got to six months if fertilization is what happened six months ago isn't that when life begins if fertilization happened three months ago instead of drawing the line at three months wouldn't it be three months ago that life begins at the moment of sperm egg fusion if someone were to say well I don't know when to ban abortion because I truly don't know when life begins then I would say two things one I would give them the science for life beginning at fertilization but two I would say if we don't know when you don't know accept the science shouldn't we err on the side of caution you know if you're going to blow up an old building you've got your dynamite all around you're about to do an implosion but someone says you know what I don't know if everyone's out of the building there could be someone still inside here do you just say but let's blow it up anyways you know or do you err on the side of caution and say we're not gonna blow this building up until we're sure so to say I don't know when life begins is different than saying there is no life here yeah and if someone cannot declaratively say there is no life here but instead they're like I just don't know then they actually might need to err on the side of caution and say well if we don't know if there's a chance then we need to to err on that side talk of the science for a moment sure at the moment of conception what happens how do we know that that's when life begins yes so one of my favorite papers to reference on this is a scientific paper written by a physician and scientific researcher dr. Maureen Kondik who wrote a paper called when does human life begin and in that paper she makes an amazing case for life beginning at fertilization and for life beginning at the beginning of fertilization because the beginning of the begin at the beginning of the beginning because if if you know anything about science and this is where again you don't know who you're talking to you could be speaking to a med student who will say to you well fertilization is a process that takes 20 24 48 hours or whatever the case may be so it what what hour does life begin so doctor conduct makes the point that it literally begins at the beginning of that let's say 24-hour period and and she makes the case this way she says when scientists have a bunch of cells and they want to know are these cells all the same type or are they different she said scientist two criteria they look at cell composition and cell behavior so in other words what does it meet up of what does it do and so she said when you look at a sperm cell what's its composition the genetic material of the father when you look at an egg what's its composition the genetic material of the mother so already with sperm and egg we know they're different cells because of composition she said now let's look at behavior when a sperm is in existence and alive it swims to find an egg and fertilize it that's the behavior of a sperm seek out an egg and penetrate it an egg what is the behavior of an egg it's to sit around and allow for penetration to occur so by behavior we can see the sperm cell in the egg cell are different from each other by composition they're different from each other therefore different cells so here's how that's relevant let's look at that criteria in light of the one celled embryo or zygote is that embryo or zygote same same thing as I go does the the one celled embryo is that individual that cell different from the sperm and the egg by composition behavior yes here's how we know when you have the embryo even before the chromosomes have intermingled because that takes time and so at the moment of sperm egg fusion when you have the sperms head which has gone into the egg you now in that entity have the composition of the mother and the father the genetic material of both the chromosomes haven't intermingled but they're all contained in that one cell so by composition we know we're dealing with something different then let's look at behavior if you look at one embryo the moment a sperm has penetrated an egg and you have the embryo if another sperm comes along what happens is it allowed to penetrate I don't know I guess not it can't if it doesn't because this zone is created around the embryo that prevents penetration from happening now if that was the egg cell it would allow penetration if it was a sperm it would be swimming around so by virtue of looking at composition and behavior of the embryo we see it's different from the sperm cell or the egg cell so my point we know that something substantively new has come into existence that we didn't have prior to sperm egg fusion and that new thing is the offspring the next generation of the parents and therefore if we believe parents have responsibility to their children since we have a new child genetically distinct from mum and dad then we ought to protect that child from that point forward excellent I some people I was listen to Joe Rogan recently and he was talking about being Pro women being able to have abortions one of the things he said was which I was still in an admission of some kind which I respected he said yeah if the woman is showing then then I'm not sure and it was really a feelings based argument right it's like I feels icky so in that situation maybe it's not so ok that seems to be the way many people who are against abortion argue it's not based on logic and reasoning and science it's based on what I find icky right and this this is the problem with our culture generally is we have lost the inclination to to reason to think through to argue properly and it is very emotions based right so it's like well if I feel affection for you it's wrong to kill you if I feel the presence of you in my body it's wrong to kill you whereas even if I lack affection and I don't feel your presence if you actually are there then I have a duty to do my best to protect and respect your life this brings up another argument I've heard and I'm sure you have – you're in a burning building and you've got a you've got let's say a baby in the next room yeah but the handled with the baby be let's say 2 months post birth yes post birth ok and then over here you've got a bunch of embryos where do they put embryos in you test tubes yeah yeah like in the test tubes in the incubator or nothing you Bator sorry the little lah the thing is I think it's cold so they're over there yeah and the buildings on fire and you only have enough time to save the one baby or that 20 let's say okay frozen embryos yes what most of us would do including me let's be honest I'll be honest I am going for the baby alright that's what I'm doing I'm going for that two month old baby and I'm running out the front door and I may grieve but I probably wouldn't to be quite honest because to me intellectually it doesn't feel I mean logically I get that they're human persons yes but I don't have that kind of attachment but isn't this proof that I really believe that they are some humans good ok great ok so we have to start with why is that analogy even being or that scenario even being presented it's being presented to get people to say what even you as a pro-lifer have said which is I'm gonna take the child after birth not these these pre born embryos so therefore it means embryos aren't human the fact that you would grab the born child over a higher number of individuals 20 embryos it doesn't mean that the embryos aren't human so the point of the end of the scenario doesn't lead us to the conclusion abortion supporters want it to lead us to and the way to smoke that out is to change the scenario and say burning building yep you can only save your wife or me the world let's not do this to home you're going to if we hate these scenaries because who I think well seems right but if you treat only sing or let's make it fully parallel as you say let's you could only save your wife twenty strangers okay yes it's a higher number of people but you're going to save your wife you would now does it mean those twenty people aren't human no it just means that you have an emotional attachment relation an action and an obligation by virtue of your marriage relationship to to run first for your wife another way to look at it is there are people literally as we're sitting here talking there are people dying right now mhm I'm not crying no I'm not having an emotional reaction yeah but if either of us got a phone call that our parents had excellent we would be having an emotional reaction my lack of an emotional reaction about the deaths of others happening right now human it is not also a proof that I can go and kill them before they die so good it's so in the same way yes we're going to likely go for the Bourne Chow I would say for two reasons one we might feel more affection just natural affection for the child that we've perhaps even held or comforted or played with but two there's a part of it is an analysis of success you know almost like a triage situation where it's like if I grab this child and I get the child out of the building I've not only saved this child in this instant but this child is gonna keep living so I have the likelihood of success in removing this child from the building I don't have that likelihood of success when I run out of the building with with 20 frozen embryos because first of all I don't want them to thaw or they're gonna die but if I'm taking the the canister out of the building does it need to be plugged into something so are they gonna die in the process of removing even if I can somehow use a generator – or whatever is needed to you know keep them in their frozen state when they're out of the building then what do I have a likely to success I'm will they be implanted should they be implanted that's a whole other ethical dilemma is is is it ethical to implant embryos in in other human beings who are not they're their biological parents and so part of it could be beyond the emotional connection is likelihood of success of actually saving lives so once you start to break down the scenario you realize this isn't a case for abortion yeah I can't saw the embryos grab their born child and run out I kill you and I save you no it's I want to say both parties the 20 and the one if I can I will but inability to save is not the same as direct killing and it's certainly not saying that if I don't save you that you're not equal to the one I saved yeah yeah that's good let's change the analogy though yes a like you're in this building burning and there's a canister of 20 embryos and suppose I go for the embryos that seems wrong that seems wrong of me is it I don't I don't know if it's necessarily wrong in the same way that someone would say going for your child versus 20 people and in ways someone might say seems wrong like it's 20 years you humans aren't it's not quite you know we don't put numbers to our value each of those 20 individuals is unrepeatable irreplaceable willed by God and beloved children of the Father but when we're in crisis and that's what we also have to look at the scenario as its crisis oriented we're emotionally charged we're going to make decisions based on the best info we have as we're reacting in the moment and so if someone perhaps has opted for rescuing frozen embryos by having them implanted they maybe think it's ethical to do so and again that's a whole epical debate but let's say they've gone through the process of having frozen embryos rescued before and they've you know brought a couple children to term maybe they would grab the 20 embryos because they think I and just some relatives are going to rescue these embryos I wouldn't say it's wrong um but I lean to what everyone else would lean to which is grabbing the child who I can put in my arms and take out of the building right away all right well here's another question this is obvious this is pretty intense question before we get to the intense question do you ever get tired of thinking and talking about this issue yes okay I know it seems like I get energized but it seems like I'm fired up but it is exhausting and and also it's exhausting on a couple of levels just at an intellectual level I having to think you know oh that's a good argument but wait here's the weakness and it's draining that way but then on a spiritual level it's like whoa what are we talking about like we're talking about engaging someone in conversation who is making whether they realize it or not the most brutal and inhumane of suggestions which is that a big strong person who is a parent is paying a hitman essentially exactly to take out their own child so that's that's disturbing and that's exhausting and that's overwhelming but yet it motivates you because of the gravity of it is this because someone has to and to whom much is given much is expected I can't claim ignorance no you can have you so much formation so much better than I can on this issue and I'd say you could argue on this issue much more than most people could and so they're afraid you'd probably do yeah I've spent a lifetime being informed and therefore have a responsibility again it's it's it's the line I love from one of the older spider-man movies when Peter Parker's in the car with Uncle Ben and Uncle Ben says remember Peter with great power comes great responsibility and which applies to you as a pro-life activist and the mother and father absolu I was just thinking that as I said I'm like I've always used in the context of an easier line activist but so here's ya here's the intense question should we imprison mothers who have abortions so my answer is always this what is abortion abortion this probably was rhetorical but well and again yes so I suppose it depends on how one is a pro-life perspective that you were saying it's the it's the direct and intentional killing of an innocent human being so the question is when you have laws against the direct and intentional killing of an innocent human being yes and someone breaks that law and therefore directly and intentionally kills an innocent human being should jail time be a Kapaa scible consequence yes for anyone who directly and intentionally kills an innocent human being and when you put it that way people will say yes but the moment it's put through the lens of should women who have abortions go to jail people think oh this is gonna make me sound terrible and I would say saying that women who have abortions should go to jail sounds terrible and is terrible if there's nothing wrong with abortion but if abortion is brutally dismembering decapitating and disembowelling the body of a baby and someone participates in doing that then why wouldn't we have a consequence legally for the parties involved then I provide more context and say in the present reality women who have abortions men who are involved in abortions so on and so forth are not currently breaking any law in places where abortion is permitted so I am NOT suggesting that we take all women who've had portions and put them in jail they have done so unfortunately in a climate in which that is not unlawful and it would fill our jails with a good number of women in society what I say is the question is once abortion becomes unlawful if someone breaks that law sure that should jail Tempe and I always say a possible consequence because when you kill your born children and there was the case of Andrea Yates who horrific aliy drowned her I think it was five children in the bathtub many years ago I believe in her case she was found at least in Canada we would call this NCR not criminally responsible and sometimes they analyze the situation to find the person was not of sound mind and so on and so forth and there often still it's some type of consequence they might be in a type of jail hospital for mental health but it wouldn't be a type of jail per se that you and I would envision if someone and my point is though that people say well wait we have laws against killing board kids and so if you're gonna drown your kids in the bathtub this is a possible consequence and each scenario will be looked at was this person of sound mind were they not necessarily fine and so the same would happen once abortion becomes illegal in each case where a woman is found to have actually had an abortion it would have to be analyzed was she of sound mind did she actually consent was she Drake there against her will by her parents by her boyfriend and and all of that would would have to be looked at and but I am a firm believer that we have to be consistent and we have to treat the preborn like we treat the born and if I believe jail time should be a possible consequence for those who end the life of born children that consistency compels me to say jail time should be a possible consequence for those who end the life of the preborn I'm gonna ask you a question running which I'm nervous to ask you this question and I'm gonna give you full freedom to dodge Wow all right yeah just read them in front of the camera oh if not if not to dodge than to say I'd like to think about that more okay if if I knew that someone was coming into my house last night to dismember my children then I would I would do whatever you know where this is going wouldn't it yes I would do what it took to stop this person and if write only thing I could do is to in trying to stop him I kill him then this would be justifiable why shouldn't we or should we be attacking abortion doctors should we be assassinating them or if not assassinating them should we be breaking their hands and if you want to say no because I get that that sounds fart rather vulgar then you have to explain to me why right right so no we should not be shooting abortionist and and and using violence as a means to achieve our end why because you you agree with me that I can I can use violence to stop the intruder right right so in this case what I often point out is that we have to look at how abortion is different so we need to look at how it's the same okay and where there are parallels like we're dealing with a born child we're dealing with a preborn child the common factor is child born pre born is irrelevant key issue is child there's always similarities and differences with every comparison and so in the case of an abortionist an abortionist is not going to do an abortion unless a woman presents herself at his clinic and freely enters into that clinic and lays her body down and invites him to enter his bought her body with the abortionist instruments and dismember the child's life so you don't have abortionist running around killing preborn children you have them as hired hitmen being enlisted by the mothers sadly and fathers and so on and so forth of these children they would not be killing these children if it weren't for if the parents of the children I could take the party that is about to be harmed and separate them from an environment where they will be harmed I absolutely should do that and I absolutely should intervene but because and this is where it gets different I don't have a born child who I can remove from the harm from the arms of a parent who is about to take that child let's say to a clinic to have a born child killed so I just pulled the child away in the case of someone who's pregnant I can't remove the preborn child that preborn child needs to stay in the womb of the mother and so I would say what I need to do is use my weapons of mass instruction very good I need to use my powers of persuasion to convince that woman whose child I cannot take from her to save to not even enter into the environment where someone will become a hired hitman all right let's let's kind of get all philosophical and and we had thought Express is not pints with Aquinas this is difficult to do on the spot I mean we've just gone over the violin argument and that's very intricate so let's so let's come up with that weird thought experiment okay you're in a house a mother is holding her born child she has paid for a hit man that come into the house and kill the child which she will hold for the duration of this procedure right you for some reason only have the ability to harm the doctor because if you were to try and harm the child the mother you you know you you kill the child right why not you know in this situation because right in the last instance you said you don't have the ability to take the child away right let's say you don't in this situations have that maybe you're in a wheelchair or something but you do have a gun I why not shoot the doctor in the legs or something right vent just from happening I think when you're looking at not just an individual case which is what your scenario is but it's an overall environment where you have this legalized killing where you have a government often funded system I mean I know it's a little different United States and in Canada there are other factors that you have to look at when making responses to individual cases looking at the overall picture so the question is are you ultimately going to succeed in achieving your end goal by way of using this almost vigilante violence people start you know shooting abortions which the point of the scenario to say would it be okay to do this we're not when we've had cases where random individuals have gone and shot abortionist it's not brought an end to abortion it has not resulted in a decrease in abortions we still have you know the rate of a commercial reason I'm firing at the intruder isn't to prevent all murders and intrusion reason I'm firing up the murderer is to prevent him killing my child right or somebody else's trait so I'm pressing you here because I think there isn't it I'm not making the claim that we should harm abortion doctors but you want to make it seems to me you want to be able to make the argument why we shouldn't so it's not even what I'm doing it just seems to me that you as someone who is pro-life who thinks that children are being directly targeted it see many that you ought to say that we should attack pro-abortion doctors because the point isn't to end all abortion when I attacked it and I'm not advocating this you're advocating that anybody harm any person okay to make that clear but we're using a thought experiment and this thought extreme has included drowning children in in lakes it is included violinists being killed this is hypothetical right here in a call we're having an intellectual I find it yeah difficult that if I was to accept your position that I wouldn't be able to also concede that it would be morally justifiable to intentionally attack hired hitmen I find that hard to accept that that's not a morally acceptable thing to do if I agree with everything you've just said about taking an unborn life so there we go do you see my problem you don't have to keep talking this is something I would like us to think about more here's what I get if I were in your shoes I could see you not wanting to be honest about this because it affects the pro-life movement right if we start blowing up Planned Parenthood clinics we start shooting doctors which I'm not advocating right if people were to start doing that that would set the pro-life movement back decades generations but so I could see I wonder if off-camera you or other pro-life people would be more willing to concede that this morally speaking could be a viable thing to do but that on camera you wouldn't be willing to in here well no but I think on camera is off camera isn't the issue the question is because someone could say well you you might have someone who will say well I don't actually think it is morally objectionable but I think it's strategically wrong okay and that's not something that they would they would hide okay right but I I certainly condemn it and don't think it should happen as we're talking it through it sounds like I don't have as strong an argument maybe to actually explain the position but nonetheless I'm holding the nonviolent position I mean I guess it could kind of know like that's not a thing to say yeah it would be like it would listen to rights movement dr. Martin Luther King jr. I'm he or Gandhi um they they chose a non-violent means to achieve their end perhaps someone could argue that when so for example actually let's take the cases um where the civil rights activists under the leadership of dr. King would would have these nonviolent seminars where they actually practiced cracking eggs on each other's heads and and and and swearing and using vulgar comments to the other Desai had this happened to me in an immense initiation rite of passage we can talk about so so they they acted this out in the safety of their own people without reacting so that when they went to the whites only lunch counters yeah and the black people would sit down in those seats that were supposedly by law only supposed to be for whites the blacks would sit down and then in real life the the actual you know racist thugs would come along and break eggs on them and and swear at them and they didn't respond and when they were physically touched and attacked and pulled they didn't react now you could argue on a tyrannical level when you're under attack the principle of self-defense is such that I have the right to use the amount of force necessary to stop an act of aggression or so could those nonviolent civil rights activists used the amount of force necessary to stop the act of aggression huge but they chose not to they said we don't believe it's strategic we're not going to choose that path this is the path that we're going to take um and so I think perhaps in some way as I'm talking it through with you that analogously is what people could say is I'm choosing the nonviolent path I'm condemning you know violence towards abortion doctors I'm not using force in response to this I'm choosing this particular strategic path now could someone come back and say yeah but but but you know it doesn't sound quite right well maybe it doesn't maybe it doesn't sound like I have a solid explanation but nonetheless my position I'm still hold on isn't one of your violence well I appreciate that because just like you said you were stumped in that debate it's regarding the liver exactly you know suppose you remain stumped and we're not able to answer him you crazy I'll hold the position that abortion is wrong because that is more true to you right right so it's like I I know this but yet it doesn't hole right here yeah I think this yeah which I have to say as a side note is why I appreciate these shows so much because I mean up until recently we haven't had the ability to do live videos for this long but it's yeah lwtech TN interviews where you've got like three minutes why is porn immoral right right right right and what I love about this is that we get beyond the soundbite well we need people to be thinking through stuff and talking through stuff and not be afraid to go places where they don't have all the answers or where they don't feel like it's fully clear and wrestle with that and talk that through would you bring us two glasses are you making that topic drove you to drink so I just you know I see that you're just diving into the Jamis and I just brought you from Ireland yes because I was just in Ireland and Scotland we talked about how are we gonna do daytime drinking right here right now yes I like my whiskey name but I'll let you pour it's crazy that we just went from such an intense topic to this what does that say that says that's why this specific I did for you yes it's not very good you're a good woman I normally have a policy to look at you just diving and that is for you so I don't want to take too much of your let's see I have a Paul see do not drink and talk that's been my policy my whole goes here right great policy and are we about to break it we are on YouTube yes is that okay sure okay listen I only have a we what is it I feel like you're pretending that you didn't intentionally bring this today because you put it I did put it here and I intentionally brought you that from Ireland with the intention of giving it to you because the one let me suggested that we that we drink it on air so I'm like okay I do like my whiskey neat Cheers Sloan chef are you got to smell it first it is all about oh it smells so good does it yeah what's a smaller whiskey although I've never had Jameson I'm usually I'm a Glenfiddich Glen Marais I just I just did a distillery tour oh you like the PD I'm so impressed that you know that now that's a woman do you smoke cigars you should you'd be perfect I love because you know you're supposed to hold it you know this isn't this isn't great are you criticizing my whiskey that you bought for me now you don't have to explain this Durrani this is what happens when you bring out alcohol so some people put kangaroo heads on their walls this is a kangaroo scrotum Wow Matt I have to say it's not it's not something that looks like a kangaroo scrotum it's actually a scrotum that was stuffed and it's a bottle opener oh it's a bottle opener I thought it was does that make it okay it has a purpose yeah anything can be okay as long as it has a purpose it's not our new moral statement yes yes yeah I fight you you you could you you cut away from what we were saying I thought you were supposed to hold it in your mouth as many years old as it is but because yeah yeah it's two things so I heard someone say about whisky for those we got to get back onto the topic so let's enjoy this have to spit out but can we either leave it on or totally off yeah that would be the fan for those listening Ryan Foley just messaged me good let's just keep going to see what happens ya know so I've heard someone say and I've always appreciated this that you don't drink whiskey you taste whiskey no that didn't make sense yes no it didn't make sense you don't drink it you taste it that's a good for someone out there who wants to get in well that's why I only needed that little bit yeah and I still have some left yeah yeah we're good right we just keep going thanks okay let's get off the topic of verse we're Celica abortion abortion okay so here's what here's what I want to talk about him okay so that went off again is that staying off okay it's not gonna come back on in like five minutes nope that would be the fan again yeah yeah for the fans watching no pun intended so I took my porn for a living you took about abortion for a living these things are incredibly difficult things to talk about and maybe people are watching right now and they're a little like whoa how did you just switch so quickly and I think that might be a defense mechanism or a coping mechanism to drag something so difficult like if you were to be fully emotionally invested in what you were talking about you know right how do you go from serious intense to light jokey suddenly cracking open and Jameson right difficult thing I mean I I mean you probably have this too I don't go ahead certain people come up to me after my talks you know not talk to me about how their husband is addicted to porn they haven't slept together in years I heard a story of a girl recently it broke my heart the dad would use the desktop computer in the girl's bedroom to look at porn but when he thought she was sleeping alright because I want to do it didn't his wife to find out so he'd wait til his daughter was asleep he got and he'd watch porn in her room that is so disturbing well what's more disturbing is she wasn't asleep so I just used that as a graphic you know intense you know awful example because if I was to fall apart every time I heard something like that right fall apart very regularly so when I have people come up to me after my conferences and talk to me about this I'm invested I'm interested I want to love them I want to speak blessing to them I want to direct them to places that can help but it's oh and I wonder if you can relate to this and I hope this doesn't sound callous but there's almost a sense in which I have to disengage sure yeah no I I think that makes sense and the analogy because I I live my life through analogy that comes to mind is like being a doctor you know you're in an emergency room or you're in a hospital or you just day in and day out hearing tragic stories of people who are physically unwell who are emotionally unwell relationally and well whatever the case may be and but the doctor has to be able to leave work and go play baseball with his son or had a good laugh with his wife or just hang out with friends and so it is an intense subject or a singer in a funeral as it would be another analogy like you when you're involved that intensely yeah yeah a sign of callousness it's not a sign of dissing well is this I guess you aren't disengaging but it's an appropriate appropriate exactly I have a counselor who she said the first time somebody came to them and saw the sharing about how they were abused as a child this counselor dr. Marianne Laden beautiful woman she said she broke down instead of crying and immediately recognized that's not at all what the person needed right that would be another example yes so and and also I think when you deal with heavy heavy stuff you have to look for healthy ways to deal with it and so I've often heard that counselors have their own counselor they have to talk through staff I mean you can't study therapy without realizing your own wounds absolutely your own unresolved trauma yeah yeah and and I think the key is though people can have unhealthy ways of dealing with heavy material whether it's something they teach or something they've lived or so they can have healthy ways or unhealthy ways of dealing with it and so it's important that we deal with things but in healthy ways so for me that's music my ukulele yeah exercise hanging out with friends alright so we've just gone to a very light topic now I want to go to perhaps the most grim topic of well Wow are you okay with that yeah so I want to know I want to know how abortion happens I want to know what happens when an abortion happen so maybe you can help us understand this because I know you've studied this and the different stages the different trimesters what's what is actually taking place physically when an abortion happens sure so I would say the two main abortions that come to mind would be kind of your classic surgical first trimester abortion and then your second or third trimester abortion so in in the first trimester where the baby's heart has begun beating at three weeks where brain waves have been detected at six weeks I at this stage and all the way up to the twelfth week that would be the first trimester the most common surgical abortion would be a suction abortion so that is where the cervix which when you're pregnant is very tightly closed the cervix has to be forced open and so abortionist will insert dilators to force the cervix open so that they can get their instruments through the cervix into the uterus and the main instrument would be a suction catheter okay and so that suction tube is inserted and once it's in the uterus the machine is flicked on and essentially a vacuum type suction is what is going to pull the baby's body out and typically the baby won't come out whole the baby will come out piece by piece and you have arms and legs you can see the little fingers and toes and you know the proof of the brutality of the procedure is seen in in what they do in the clinics afterwards which is that to make sure all the parts of the baby are out of the mother because if a part is left in it can result in severe infection emerging and so forth the the abour someone working the abortion industry whether it's the doctor themselves or one of the the assistants will will take the contents of that jar that the the uterine contents got sucked into and they'll have to look for the baby body parts well they're piecing these parts together to get the little head to get the arms to get the legs to make sure they got it all because again otherwise you're going to potentially have this this emerging oh yeah so so that right there that's telling us again when you look at the nature of the act it's telling us there's someone there who's armed are they looking for it's not the mother's arm but it is an arm so it's an arm of another body the arm of a child and very specifically the mother's child if you look later abortions what will often happen in that case is that a chemical is injected into the heart of the child very often potassium chloride so this is getting into the the second second later second trimester a heart a kcl will be injected into the heart that basically induces cardiac arrest a heart attack so at that point the babies then dead then this can be a couple day procedure to pay a fee later in the second trimester the cervix after that will be dilated gradually because you need to dial it way more than in the first trimester to get the the bigger body parts out and then what the abortionist does is he inserts a type of instrument that is almost like like a it clamps down you've got the top and the bottom and they insert it in the uterus which is now dilated and clamped down whatever they feel twist and pull out there's an arm and then insert it back in twist a clamp down twist pull there's a leg and then when they get to the head of course the head is often too big larger and so one of the the actual medical documents I read for for in Canada when there that there was a medical body describing how these later abortions should be done it talked about using a crushing and rotating technique when removing the head of the child so that bone spicules to quote the document directly of the baby the little bones of the baby's head bone spicules do not lacerate the cervix of the mother or cut his mother so a profession rotate crush and rotate so that it's everything's finer when being pulled through the very tender cervix so it's not – what's the rotating because I get the crush makes it funny that you have to rotate the point is it's it's brutalizing it it's dismembering it's decapitating its disemboweling and tell us what body of a baby tell us what a late term abortion is what happens there so that's partly it but so that would be late term another option would be to just induce labor so rather than pull the parts out piece by piece it could be bring about fetal demise through KCl in the heart or whatever and then the woman would labor like she would with a living child except be birthing a dead child but there have also been there was a case years ago that actually involved the United States and Canada because there was a woman in Iraq was around the 80s who had a late-term saline abortion done in the United States just south of the Vancouver border in Western Canada in Washington State and she had had at that time and I don't think they do this anymore or as much anymore a saline injection abortion so that was where a saline solution was injected into the uterus in general and so it would corrode or burn the skin of the baby and the baby would then swallow it so then it would corrode inside and this woman had done that and then I crossed the border into Canada and went into labor and presented at the hospital in labor expecting that she would deliver a dead child because of the saline injection but remarkably that had not killed the child and so the baby came out alive and was left for it was at least 20 minutes in in a type of bed pan with a bunch of like towels and stuff placed on top of the child about 20 or so minutes later one of the nurses walked in the back room heard a child crying at that point they did resuscitation and the child survived was adopted out and is severely disabled all these decades later from do you think that mother's still alive I don't know yeah she could she very well could be and you know extends his mercy to her and that she know about that mercy and that she would respond to it and see herself as God the Father does because that could be a horrific thing well in and I think we need we need to realize it's horrific to live with whether it's the story so vividly as I described it or whether it's a first trimester abortion where the woman didn't even feel really pregnant yet or whether it's a chemical solution right and so I think that's where it's like in discussing all of this and the weight of it all we need to remember that when we talk about the killing of the preborn there are so many wounded born individuals who are living with the guilt of involvement with abortion and in in my clear consistent condemnation of abortion I need to be clear and consistent than as a person of faith that God is a merciful and loving God that he is a Heavenly Father who views all of us as his beloved sons and daughters even when we dismiss and destroy the gift of human life that he has bestowed upon us so for anyone you know wrestling with an abortion in their past I the best way to healing is tone up to it to face what one is done in all its ugliness but to not stay there to not stay in despair but to choose the path of Peter we're gonna do which cameras on that one middle one could you put this camera one on I'm gonna ask you to speak to a woman who's just had an abortion okay all right awkward there are women who might have been sent this who have had an abortion we'll make this a separate clip right would you mind just looking into that camera and speaking to that woman sure I guess so where I would start is um that I have friends who have had abortions I have met many many women in my lifetime of working in the pro-life movement who have made that choice and in interacting with them I have seen the profound grief and suffering that that has brought into their lives and so if you are one such woman who although we've never met is living with the grief and the pain of a choice that you cannot undo my message for you as painful as your past is is a message of hope and a message of mercy and having just come off of the Easter season where Christ died and suffered and rose from the dead source sins could be forgiven I just offer you that reminder that God does not want us to stay in our filth and our sin but he came to wash us clean with his blood and to redeem us and so I just want to encourage you to be not afraid to if you've yet to repent to yet to confess that sin to be bold and to be strong in owning up to that and lay it at the foot of the cross if you're a Catholic to enter into the profound beauty and healing of the sacrament of reconciliation and to offer that to the Lord and trust in His mercy and trust that God will not only forgive but he will transform and that is something that has encouraged me in my own life where I have to work through my own sins and pass and things that I regret is that God makes all things new we know this in the book of Revelation behold I make all things new and whatever our sin whatever our past whatever ugliness we have invited into our life God will bring beauty from our ashes and he will transform what we've done and bring great good from it it doesn't make what we've done good but it makes God all powerful that he can take our ugly and he can take our mess and he can take our dirty and he can take our sin and he can say I'm gonna bring good from that and I've seen that one of my friends Debbie who had an abortion goes around and shares her story to teenagers of how she regrets having killed her child and there was an audience member who had a friend enroute to an abortion clinic and he grabbed his phone and texted her and told her about Debbie and to make a very long story short that girl decided not to go to the abortion clinic and befriended Debbie and a few months later a baby girl was born that's transformation that is God saying Debbie I hate what you've done you hate what you've done but I've forgiven you you've repented and so now we're gonna use this and we're gonna use it for my glory and so allow God to use what you've done and regret as you show regret to use for his glory and draw great good from it amen yeah thank you so much for that that's so important that we do that isn't it yeah and then are there any resources for those who have had abortions that you would point to yes a few things immediately always come to mind there's rachel's vineyard and project rachel which are post abortion healing programs there also is the sisters of life which are based in new york but they're now in canada in colorado in washington DC they run beautiful healing retreat weekends for those who are grieving the loss of their children through abortion so i highly recommend going to sisters of and and out clicking on their link for post abortion information that's beautiful gosh yeah thank you so much for sharing that i guess finally like where do we go from here because you know I heard someone recently say that they're at the March for Life in DC and someone said see you here next year there was a certain sadness that came upon them that like is this just what we do now right is this is this ever going to be resolved I hear people who are rather optimistic and they say that they think that you know that this is going to be eradicated in our lifetime that we will you know are you that optimistic what do we do what are our marching orders yeah I think there there is reason for hope for so there's always reason for hope because we know the end of the story and we know God the Creator and God the Father and that he's got this yeah and that we are to be instruments for him it's not about you it's not about me it's about God working His Majesty in this world that he is created for the creation that he loves and is considered very good so I think we need to be faithful to the duty of the moment what is before me who do I know and where am I placed and I can respond to that going forward in a spirit of Hope that lives are being saved that minds are being changed and that I am confident this will end just as as William Wilberforce in Great Britain work to bring about an end to the slave trade he actually saw that in his life chant lifetime but we can't kid ourselves that slavery is over because of what he did because we know we have human trafficking that we have modern-day slavery so but he did what he could where he at the time that he lasers when he made great strike you're saying this isn't an old or Nothing battle it's not like either we totally overthrow this or it's not worth investing our time in it right because we're living in a sinful world there's all from from the time Cain killed Abel there has been attacks on human life there have been people murdering people so murder you know we want to strive to see it end but whether it legally ends whether in practice it ends in this form well what about this other form that it might rear its ugly head in because sin in this imperfect world is still happening so our duty is to be responsible where we can I'm not responsible for what I can't do but I sure am responsible for what I can and so we have to seize those moments with confidence and hope that if we are receptive to the spirits promptings who have I just encountered who is before me how can I reach out to them in an act of love I mean your wife told me a beautiful story last night of how she and your daughter's had been at a store and overheard a couple of the workers talking about pregnancy and being single parents and as Haman and your daughters left they started talking as I was Avila perhaps her Chiara had said to camp mommy do you think that woman one of those women was pregnant and and Kem was like yes I kind of did get the sense that she was we should pray for her and then cam thought no we need to do more than that and so cam told me she walked do you know the story I know I love your wife – you know this ring yes she walked back in with the girls and so I think this is beautiful for the sake of the woman is beautiful for your daughters this witness um but cam walked back in and said look this is gonna seem crazy but I just gotta ask you over hearing everything like are you pregnant and and the woman said yes you say I mean Cam's immediate reaction was what celebratory you know like congratulations you know you're a mom this is beautiful and she said look I overheard all you ladies talking about how hard it is to be a single mom and she goes look I'm not a single mom but it's hard to be a parent it's hard to be a mom even when you have support and I want to support you I want to encourage you in this and cam said that she wanted this woman to know cuz she thought this is not just about using our words it's about using our actions and how she said to this woman I wouldn't she was like I've got $5 on me she goes I want to do more than that I want to show you that that God can provide and that people will support you in the situation that you're in and I'm gonna get you a gift card right now for your store where you can use it on movie yeah well your wife spent $200 on it if guards so you know I well yeah because the baby's not born yet ferocious she is so amazing I can that's amazing she spent $200 on a gift card to let this woman know that she has support and she can do this and that to me is duty of the moment and that is responding to what is before you whether or not your wife ended up or ends up or ended up going to a March for Life to me isn't as important as what she did in that moment when she overheard a conversation and thought I can just ignore or pray for which is a you know better than ignore is to pray or I can take it one step further than just prayer and I can do some action some investigation and just be a light and she was and then you know to think that your daughter saw that beautiful witness and are now praying for this young woman so we didn't go I know you have a great way you do have a very good yeah yeah that's beautiful thank you so much for being here tell our listeners and our viewers about your book love unleashes life yes so I have a ministry called love unleashes is the website and yes I have a book by the same title with a subtitle abortion in the art of communicating truth because I really believe it is an art in how we interact with others how we have conversation dialogue debate how we tackle tough subjects we have to use the head but we also have to use the heart and so that's the whole idea between love unleashes life that that we can literally unleash life by saving a baby from abortion as well as figuratively unleash life in the spirit of the person that were encountering the way candid with that that woman at the store who was pregnant by giving someone a new perspective new hope new encouragement by how we love and as we know from Saint Thomas Aquinas that to love is to will the others good and so that when we will the other is good in how we interact with them with gentleness by being patient and kind you think of all the words used to scribe love in that passage and Corinthians the very beginning is love is patient love is kind so as we interact with the borin by being patient and by being kind by our actions by how we look at them that love will unleash life figuratively and literally in in their response so so that's kind of what what my focus is all about is equipping people to be better ambassadors for the pro-life perspective in reaching the head as well as the heart so people can go to love unleashes life calm and read my blog sign up for my ear up dates and see my schedule for where I'm speaking next that's one to focus I think often people think to themselves well I know that it's wrong right so I don't need to invest time reading about things like this right like whereas they might say well I need to read up on how to answer atheism because I think I don't know how to respond this I have my own doubts and so they write they're diligent about reading books but I think for many people in the pro-life camp maybe they don't spend a lot of time doing that because they think we'll already know but you would say we we need it's not that we just need to know what we believe and why we believe it we need to know how to best communicate it because at the end of the day we all have the same goal to make abortion unthinkable so that it doesn't enter into the hearts and minds of someone in crisis to choose that course of action but how do we reach that goal and the person who is interruptive who's angry who's rude you've seen this yeah but but who is against abortion has the same goal as the person who's patient and kind and calm but if they're not reaching if that first person isn't reaching that goal then we need to be better equipped to better represent what it means to be pro-life to be patient to be kind and so yes I give people basic apologetics but I give them more than that how to to use questions and stories analogies to make a point abundantly clear so that it's more readily embraced have you ever been on the kind of frontlines by an abortion mill or something with people who have been trying to get across the pro-life message in a way that you thought was very unhelpful and have you ever yeah this is someone about why they should change yeah so I've done a lot of work on college campuses with pro-life exhibits and I have seen people that aren't with the exhibit that I was doing but people who shared our position on abortion arrived in the area and yeah take a strategy that you think that that is just not helpful but I find it hard even for me to engage those people in the same way the pro-abortion person has a hard time engaging those people because it's like they have a one-track mind and it's like I'm just going to proclaim this without thinking am i succeeding yes so absolutely a prophet isn't welcome in their own hometown and we need to be prophets and we need to proclaim I'm not in any way saying we shouldn't do that or trying to minimize the power of proclamation but it has to be Proclamation with a purpose and the purpose has to be the pupil are one over to what we're proclaiming and and so the more that we come from a place of contemplation prior to springing into action the more we can be receptive to the movement of the Spirit to know when should I be quiet and just let the person I'm speaking with tell their story when should I ask this particular question when should I be more pointed when should I come on strong and there have been conversations where I have taken a tactic with some people that support abortion that I wouldn't take with others where someone might say whoa you were kind of being harsh but I wasn't because I had spoken them for 30 minutes and I had built a rapport and he had this Oh in discernment as a result of prior contemplation before action I had a sense I can poke this person a little bit but there are other people where I wouldn't do that because of how that conversation is going or because of how I'm sensing you know how they're receiving it so prudence along those lines what are your thoughts on graphic images well so I spend a good portion of my pro-life career using abortion victim photography with the ministry I used to work for the Canadian Centre for bioethical reform as a tool to educate the culture as to what is happening and although I have a new ministry now love and leashes life as we've said I absolutely still believe in the power of that particular tool to break through the lies and to bring light onto the darkness of what is abortion and change people's minds but I think abortion victim photography is a tool like any tool it can be used well or it can be used poorly how can it be used well and how can it be as poorly so I think a way to use it well first of all is to have the user be well trained in reaching the head as well as the heart being a very solid ambassador for the logic of the pro-life perspective knowing how to articulate it but also being deeply steeped in a compassionate and empathetic understanding of those who are wounded so as to know when they need to proceed more gently with with people in conversation so having the user already in holding that image or presenting that image in pamphlet form whatever the case may be coming from that place then the image themselves I often have heard it said by one of my pro-life mentors Greg Cunningham who has worked in the pro-life movement for decades he said when you hold up a picture of abortion abortion protests itself in other words we shouldn't have to say much the reality of what abortion does is what's yelling at people so I think there's nothing wrong with saying abortion kills children but what I often did at sea CPR was we would actually just have the image of the aborted child with the word choice we wouldn't say abortion is killing we would just take the word positively associated with it put in the end the image of the end result and let the passerby come to their conclusion is this a choice what does this choice do and then engage use that almost confusing image like the word choice but then that picture and draw them into a conversation and then recently with Miley Cyrus I'm not sure if you saw that there was a cake and I think she said abortion is healthcare as you heard about yeah she looks things a lot how much cakes so there was but someone kind of photoshopped this and put a dead baby where the cake was it was her face licking oh wow I did not see that yeah yeah and you think so but then what do you see people who say well aren't you traumatizing children who may not yet be ready to view such an image mmm so I would say if you took abortion victim photography to an area only children were present that would be a probably gotten exactly when abortion victim photography is taken to the general public you're it's almost like the principle of double effect you're not targeting children you're targeting those who are old enough to have abortions believing they're old enough to see abortions that's who you're taking your message to you just recognize that sometimes when you do that there will be smaller children around and so in that case I say what's worse seeing a child seeing an abortion image or a child being an abortion image and the reality is if let's say five-year-old children were being killed on street corners and you were walking down the street with a four-year-old would your first thought be how dare these people kill five-year-olds in front of my four-year-old or would your first thought be how dare these people in the street corner be killing a five-year-old you set your child in the arms of someone who's safe and you run to intervene and so I think that's how we need to look at this is that there are children being killed just not on street corners they're being killed behind the closed doors of abortion clinics and people aren't responding because they don't know because they perceive it as a positive thing and so we need to bring what's in darkness into the light and we need to again communicate truth and love but if love is willing the other's good that means warning people and I I remember meeting a woman who'd had an abortion who through tears said to me no one told me it looked like that and she would have made a very different choice only a few months before I met her if only someone had told her and I contrast her with another woman that I met who had seen abortion victim photography and never spoke interestingly to my colleagues who had been showing the images but she was pregnant and she was scheduled for an abortion and she cancelled her appointment and only serendipitously months later met some of our team members and when she found out what they did as a job she realized oh my gosh you're the people you're the people who I saw on the street and and when the day she gave birth she invited a couple of my colleagues to the hospital where it where that baby was born who would have otherwise been killed had she see it looks like right so naught against say billboards of you know fetuses I mean because it's there's a right way to do it sounds like you as like this person ought to know how to respond and how yeah help people process what they're saying you know I think you know if you you have abortion victim photography and you say things like if you have an abortion you're going to a abortion victim photography I've never put that way right it's it's a it's there's a reason you're putting it that way isn't that absolutely because I have learned time and again in this debate language matters what we see matters words are not meaningless and abortion supporters have been very wise in using language like choice reproductive justice and so forth because it sounds positive its choice exactly a reproductive rights exactly so our job is to define all their words and our job is to also use words to our advantage and and I think abortion victim photography focuses on the fact that first of all we're talking with the victim and someone is being victimized and we use all kinds of victim photography and it's widely accepted you know people who are victims of genocide in in other countries people who are children who are starving in some parts of Africa images like this are actually photography victim photography like that is often presented even in billboard form to get people like you and me to say I need to sponsor a child every month or I need to send money to this campaign that is responding to this human rights violation happening in this other part of the world so yeah I think that that images can be used on a wide scale on billboard form but what is the text message that goes with it what is the organization presenting it the website that you then go to isn't going to be vicious it's gonna be verbally vicious or is it gonna be strategic and wise and thoughtful and thought-provoking alright as you did say that these could be used well and poorly exactly so it could be vicious you could be angry sure so people can all see people who hold the images but or yelling at people or this is you know yeah or or you're gonna burn in hell or or different comments like that which which give no sense of hope and mercy because God is merciful or text that could go along and I haven't thought through but you know what negative text could be but even just what I said being in text form next to the image well that's not gonna be helpful but drawing people to think deeper with the evidence of what's going on and bringing it to an area where they're encountering it because if you didn't they wouldn't otherwise encounter that message all of that I think is is very good what do you think I love that about twenty minutes ago I thought this conversation was wrapping up should I take another drink what do you think about people who go undercover into Planned Parenthood clinics you know again I think it's an important role it's a strategic kind of attack to take that I would view is like being an undercover police officer who is going undercover to find out what is actually going on in the drug world or whatever the case may be so to me it's a way of bringing what's in darkness into the light when you're dealing with yes earlier in this conversation I kind of pressed you on whether Pro lifers should you know kill or injure pro-abortion doctors you say no violence yes but you know we were thinking things through that maybe we would phrase more sophisticated ly accurately later on it's Reyes here's something that I haven't fully figured out I guess the kind of put my I think I know where you're going with it put myself on the way I find it difficult to let's just use Thomas Aquinas right here's his understanding of lying and that is forever permissible it seems to me that if undercover work is permissible then it's okay in certain instances to lie so if so how does he define lie well so here's how I think the Catechism defines it okay thank wooded face to go this when you intentionally deceive another person or you you tell a falsehood with the intention of deceiving hmm so let's just say for the sake of argument as a working definition that's what a lie is to tell a falsehood with the intention of deceiving okay so if that's if that is maybe it's right but if that's how we define lying yeah and if we say lying is intrinsically evil yes and can never be justified right and it would follow that undercover work in Planned Parenthood clinics is intrinsically evil because you are telling a falsehood with the intention of deceiving or in it could we look at it this way as it's almost like acting so when I'm an actress on a stage you know salmon the sound of music That's not me I'm taking on a role and I'm presenting myself as Maria but I'm not I'm Stephanie mm-hmm and could you argue that if I present myself as a minor who's pregnant and seeking an abortion although I realize at this age I could not present myself that way but you know what I mean um could it be argued that I'm actually taking on the role of an actress not to deceive the parties that I'm talking with there's a debate just wait just wait to expose their deceit and that's it because I know that they're deceiving and the only way to show that they're deceiving is to act to take on a role to be in a play essentially that they don't know that they're a part of for me to play a role to show that they're sweeping this abortion under the rug or sending me across state lines to have an abortion to or whatever the case may be does that work I don't know mr. clean it seems to me that I know and I'm open and of course being corrected cuz I want the truth yeah there's a difference there I still think you should go undercover I just think I have to conclude that it's okay to lie sometimes I see that right me what the Catechism says I'm lying so I don't say that just finish my thought okay so like if you're acting as Maria right you're not deceiving me I I'm I'm a part of this agreed deceiving right right I understand what you're doing it's sort of like if if I um if I dress up as Santa Claus and show my my children aware of this we play a little game wherein the trick to right we're both agreeing they play this sort of game right that's not what's happening when you go undercover the person is being deceived you're saying that you are such and such and and it's just different to the person sitting in a theater and to the person who's receiving you as a woman claiming to be in distress there's a difference there so what I wonder if if this word to seem almost like an inconsistency you like sometimes allowing lying when we have a declaration that you shouldn't lie understandably um would the church not have come out and spoken against for example being undercover police officers well they're not great yet have been something so so perhaps it's it's that we're just not understanding I think that's right yeah I think you're right yeah how this this would apply doesn't apply yeah I know I agree because I feel like with this I would say it's it's right with me that it's okay to go undercover right if you policemen write this you can go undercover as a journalist exactly yes so but how to respond as you've defined by lying yeah I that's one of those ones where I'd say I have to read up on it yeah and earlier what you said you know you said well okay even if I'm not able to fully explain it right now I'm gonna side with this option because right you can see it's right to me yeah and similarly I would say well even if I'm not sure about how to say this isn't lying right if I want to say lying is always wrong and I still will side with the fact that you can go undercover to expose certain atrocities taking place when when you know that I think I think part of it is and I don't know if this is making excuses but when you're dealing with evil evil is about lying and evil is about hiding and evil is about darkness and so what we're trying to do being kind of the pro-life movement is expose the lies expose the darkness so how do you find out that the lies are happening other than to engage in situations where the line will be seen or the the deceit will be seen or the darkness will be seen but because you're not really pregnant right so if I was really pregnant and really thinking about an abortion I wouldn't have to lie by going to an abortion clinic and saying hi I'm wanting an abortion and seeing how they respond to my circumstance but if I'm not really that woman right so like pretend to be correct how else do I prove what I sense is going on which is that if I said you want to see or I'm so so yeah it almost is like to me it's again I look at it as taking on a character admittedly they don't know but it's acting taking on a character to expose the deceit that is happening whereas if you said to me ah why were you late for our interview yeah and I lied and said oh there was a car accident because I I didn't want to say well I slept in and then I decided to sip my coffee slow or whatever the case may be in that case I'm not willing to own up to weakness on my part lack of responsibility lack of you know and so forth I don't know that just seems different I agree it seems different and it's just I'm fully just so everyone knows like right now I agree with Lila Rose and this other bloke what was his name David so David daleiden right because he's done more recently with Center for medical progress so I'm glad that these things yeah exactly I just I would say I agree not myth Axl what they're doing with my stance that lying is always wrong and and I need to think more about whether I do think have you talked to creep develop this I will next month when he's oh wow great you hear me you feel the struggle don't you well i tension because i think my hear the nazi at the door situations right is using the basement and you have that kind of intellectual what's the word where you kind of hide and dodge and Aquinas says you can do this he says it's in the Summa right so if I were to say there are no cockroaches in the basement and that person might think that I mean Jews in saying cockroaches and I haven't technically lied but if I'm that's not what I asked what I asked you is are you hiding Jews in the base right yes or no Oh what are you gonna say I know I see I say no and I lie I deliberate I would absolutely make that sure so here's a question I think I've heard this definition before that lying is withholding the truth from someone who has a right to it that's true Aquinas said is he rain on everything well no he said some things that are false right accurate conception for example huh you know that so but I guess because when you're dealing with an evil party ya know here's why he thinks it's wrong okay okay sex has at least two fundamental ends right the unitive appropriative and procreative to thwart one of the ends is to pervert the act okay Aquinas seems to say that the end of speech is truth-telling and so to thwart the end of speech is to pervert the act so that's sort of how tourists would argue that's my understanding now I'm not an expert in this for those who are gonna pick me apart here on YouTube right but you see the logic there so anyway right so I yeah I have this sort of I am looking forward to thinking this through more which is which is what we're supposed to do this is the Matt France show and while I think's the rim while I think this through I'm still going to side with people like David and Lila and so absolutely absolutely all right thanks yeah all right thank you so much for watching this episode I hope it's been a real blessing to you what we're gonna do now is record an extra segment just for our patrons okay so all of this work cost money and I am so very grateful to those who are supporting me at slash Matt Fred slash Matt Fred if you could I ask you would you please give me a dollar amount ten bucks a month or more when you do you get certain free things in return and if you give ten dollars or more a month me on patreon right you are gonna get access to this post show wrap-up that I just did with Stephanie gray I'm recording it after the fact but let's just say she plays her ukulele and we also take more questions about whether men should be involved in the pro-life movement and we get into a whole other bunch of stuff that you're not gonna want to miss I hope so again if you're a patron you're watching this right now head on over to patreon Comstock map right so you can watch this like 20 minute post video wrap-up thing that we just did and if you're not yet a patron please consider becoming one go to call stuff including what we're about what we just did okay or if you don't like patreon go to pints with Aquinas dot-com / donate okay that's my other podcast and if you donate there you'll also get access to this video clip thank you so much for all of your support and please if you haven't yet subscribed to this YouTube channel give it a thumbs up and tell your friends about it alright see ya

30 Replies to “Stephanie Gray | The Matt Fradd Show Ep. 9”

  1. Wow I look up to both of you. As the chaplain of the pro-life club at my high school, I’m always looking for more arguments to share with my school and fellow officers, and I found the perfect videos to share! And I already did! Thank you!

  2. I will note that a minority of philosophers/theologians say that those solutions mentioned under PoDE do not, in fact, fall under PoDE, and are still immoral.

  3. Loved this! Great fan of Stephanie! The person that I've ever seen defending life with the most solid stance and arguments. Thanks Matt for the interview. God bless both of you.

  4. @MattFradd please let me know what you think.
    Hey. Great interview. Just a couple of thoughts:
    1) In the instance of attacking abortion doctors, doesn’t the doctrine of just war apply? Since it is a great injustice done to a certain part of the society, namely unborn children, it can be seen as a matter for war. Now we know that it is only justifiable to engage in violent acts towards others (not in concrete personal instances such as someone directly trying to harm your children) in an organised and planned manner is when all the other means have been tried and when there is a good chance of success. If we can look at it this way then really what we have to decide on is just have all the means been tried and if yes, then would we be successful in stopping abortion by using violence. I do not know what means have been taken, but one I can think of is just making the doctors life really uncomfortable by constantly reminding them of what they’re doing and fitting these actions within legal limits. This could either help them realise that what they’re doing is horrible or just find another job that wouldn’t cost them their comfort.
    2) In the instance of lying to a nazi about hiding jews, doesn’t the principle of lesser evil apply? Lying seems to be a lesser evil than letting someone get killed. And the circumstances of lying seem to matter. If my only choice is between lying and potentially saving a life (especially knowing that you’re putting yourself at risk) then it seems that lying is a lesser evil. There are however situations where lying to save a life would be a greater evil that letting someone get killed. For example: apostasy, because the matter of lying seems to be greater than the actual good of saving a life.

  5. You changed my mind on this topic! I am not religious but Thanks for showing me this perspective! Especially the part about personhood was important to change my mind

  6. OUTRAGEOUS Video, How dare you say that Jameson isn't a great whiskey. It's the best. Apart from that wonderful upload keep them coming.

  7. Every time I listen to Stephanie Gray I'm proud to be a Canadian.

    And yes, Wow! is my reaction every time she responds to common pro-choice arguments.

  8. My problem with Aquinas’s belief of lying is that he also says killing in self defense is okay. That would mean in the case of Nazis at the door, you could kill the Nazis, just not lie to them, and that doesn’t seem logical to me

  9. Stephanie, you are such a beautiful witness! I love your logic and consistency, and your compassion. This video really made me think about a lot of the difficult areas surrounding the abortion debate and how to think through them logically. I've always been pro-life, but now I am really pro-life!

  10. This has become another political control issue in a world run amuck with immature unthinking children, and this woman contributes to it. Pro-life is a war against women.
    Let's support the pregnant women who can't afford their born child. Pro lifers care too much about the unborn and care nothing once a child is born. That's been all too obvious. They are the most unsupportive shallow thinkers I've met. This isn't just an emotional issue that anyone can spout cheap words of pretend "compassion", but a physical, practical and financial one. Real compassion offers viable solutions. Please, YouTube stop recommending this channel.
    This woman uses manipulated words to make a living. When she walks in all the others women's shoes, she can talk. Until then, she really needs to be quiet and stop her political word soup rhetoric. It's not wise, mature or truly caring. The only people you convince are immature people who don't see the realities of another human's life, only the ones you want for your arguments. No real education happening here. You are doing them a disservice, and I find that an abomination. The blind leading the blind. I gave this a thumbs down.

  11. Wow, one sip of whiskey and this show took a wacky turn. Never saw that coming. New meaning to “down under”.

  12. The Uncle Ben Line is what I was thinking just before you said that!

    Yes, it certainly applies to sex. It is a great power given for the purpose of proCREATING a brand new person! SUCH a great power! What greater power does anyone have?!

    Therefore, with great power (sexuality) comes great responsibility.

  13. Hi Stephanie, great to see you! Since I met you in Costa Rica I 've got married and have two kids, your interview has tremendous value to me now that I see it as a mom! Hugs from Madison, WI
    Monica ♧

  14. This video will change lives. God bless you both for allowing Him to work through you so wonderfully and efficaciously.

  15. That new set is great. MUCH more comfortable to look at, and it looks like it's more comfortable in which to hold conversations. Great job.

  16. I wanted to like this vid Matt, but Stephanie pronounced ukulele (ooh-koo-leh-leh) incorrectly! 😛

    Kidding. Great interview, I thoroughly enjoyed the video!

  17. Wow… her first argument was so simple and obvious….. but incredibly profound. I never thought of it that way

  18. A challenge to the pregnancy test argument: My devil’s advocate (“DA”) response to that argument is to reply that the test indicates the presence of a new collection (DA: “clump”) of cells that is changing (DA: “disrupting”) the woman’s hormones, but that does not necessarily imply the presence of another “body”, much less a person. Counter?

  19. Shooting an abortionist is not self defense. We cannot use violence to ambush an abortionist even if he is committing acts of violence daily.

  20. Abortion has matured to the point of basically acknowledging they are performing murder on a human. Now they are finally admitting to their utalitarian/authoritarian ethic.

  21. it is common to hear a pregnant woman say " I just felt the baby kick" They call it a baby, not a mass of cells. We often hear a woman's body described as having a baby bump, Again the word BABY appears.

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